NZSBK Round 2 - dispute

[Billy]

Unfortunately the rules as they have been written look like they have to be interpreted, ie they're not explicit enough. People not asking is always going to be a problem if they believe they're reading the rules correctly.

However, if they were rewritten to be as clear as possible without any alternative interpretations you then have the problem of enforcement.

Nope,Seems clear enough too me, "If its not mentioned then it must remain OEM",The only machining mentioned re engine is reboring,NOWHERE does it mention machining surfaces and why would there be a mention of the gasket thickness if it was okay to change cylinder height?

[jellywrestler]

Nope,Seems clear enough too me, "If its not mentioned then it must remain OEM",The only machining mentioned re engine is reboring,NOWHERE does it mention machining surfaces and why would there be a mention of the gasket thickness if it was okay to change cylinder height?

copied from rule book...
NOTE:
All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced
by the manufacturer, remain fitted and operational for that homologated model.

[jasonu]

this protest didn't come from a competitor though

Yes I understand that. But still it is a protest all the same and apparently one based on poor information. The competitor and his team have been put to a lot of trouble, wasted a lot of time and their reputation is now not as it was. Surely some compensation is due.

[RobGassit]

Yes I understand that. But still it is a protest all the same and apparently one based on poor information. The competitor and his team have been put to a lot of trouble, wasted a lot of time and their reputation is now not as it was. Surely some compensation is due.

You really have no idea at all what you are talking about. Have you ever signed a competitors indemnity? If you have, did you read it? Seriously, you could do us all a favour by bringing yourself up to speed before pulling onto the motorway.

[Grumph]

Nope,Seems clear enough too me, "If its not mentioned then it must remain OEM",The only machining mentioned re engine is reboring,NOWHERE does it mention machining surfaces and why would there be a mention of the gasket thickness if it was okay to change cylinder height?

At least quote accurately. "All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced by the manufacturer"

Then, note 2, "only OEM engine parts for the homologated model may be fitted...."

In conjunction with using the parts and service manuals for the homologated model being used as reference to confirm standard specifications - from the intro again....

I read this as permitting combinations of standard OE parts...example. selective bearing clearancing...And if the specifications for a given part are in the service manual,taking said part to whichever end of the standard specification range you desire is legal so long as it stays within the parameters in the book.
I'd point out that nowhere does it say removing metal to achieve this is illegal.

I'd also point out that rules as WRITTEN must be upheld - nowhere in the book does it say that the INTENT of the rule is paramount

I'm sorry for the way this has turned out but given we're working off written rules which use an imperfect medium - written language - which is capable of interpretation, conflict is inevitable. Oh, and if I was building one, I would NOT ring for clarification before starting. We ALL work from the book as it is written.

[Shaun Harris]

At least quote accurately. "All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced by the manufacturer"

Then, note 2, "only OEM engine parts for the homologated model may be fitted...."

In conjunction with using the parts and service manuals for the homologated model being used as reference to confirm standard specifications - from the intro again....

I read this as permitting combinations of standard OE parts...example. selective bearing clearancing...And if the specifications for a given part are in the service manual,taking said part to whichever end of the standard specification range you desire is legal so long as it stays within the parameters in the book.
I'd point out that nowhere does it say removing metal to achieve this is illegal.

I'd also point out that rules as WRITTEN must be upheld - nowhere in the book does it say that the INTENT of the rule is paramount

I'm sorry for the way this has turned out but given we're working off written rules which use an imperfect medium - written language - which is capable of interpretation, conflict is inevitable. Oh, and if I was building one, I would NOT ring for clarification before starting. We ALL work from the book as it is written.

Perfect Grumph, yes you can build a semi blue printed engine legally by matching parts and bearing clearances as you have pointed out, but that is where the blue printing stage ends. All my motors over the years were built in this manner by a very very good engine builder.





it is funny how mechanics talk to each other in work shop enviroments about the work they are doing and what they have seen in motors eh and then one of them tells some one else out side of work hours.

[Billy]

copied from rule book...
NOTE:
All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced
by the manufacturer, remain fitted and operational for that homologated model.

Thats right "AS ORIGINALLY PRODUCED" Not "Oh as long as its an OEM part you can do what you want with it"

Theres NO reading between the lines accepted and Grumphs explanation below that he would not seek clarification is a clear case of ignorance,As stated earlier Ignorance is not an excuse for ineligibility

[Yow Ling]

Ok so say a head is slightly warped, is it ok to have it machined to return it to flat so long as it is within the manufacturers specifications, afterall this is how the manufacturers make things flat.

The rule book says what you cant do , not what you can do.

[scott411]

Ok so say a head is slightly warped, is it ok to have it machined to return it to flat so long as it is within the manufacturers specifications, afterall this is how the manufacturers make things flat.

The rule book says what you cant do , not what you can do.

thats incorrect, from the top of teh 250 production rules,

NOTE:
All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced
by the manufacturer, remain fitted and operational for that homologated model.
The parts and service manuals for the homologated models will be used as reference to
confirm standard specifications.

[Tony.OK]

At least quote accurately. "All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced by the manufacturer" So then by removing metal the part suddenly isn't "as produced by the manufacturer"

Then, note 2, "only OEM engine parts for the homologated model may be fitted...." Therefore using the 1st sentence.....Any OEM part must remain as produced by manufacturer.

In conjunction with using the parts and service manuals for the homologated model being used as reference to confirm standard specifications - from the intro again....

I read this as permitting combinations of standard OE parts...example. selective bearing clearancing...And if the specifications for a given part are in the service manual,taking said part to whichever end of the standard specification range you desire is legal so long as it stays within the parameters in the book.
I'd point out that nowhere does it say removing metal to achieve this is illegal. by that theory, porting and polishing is also legal as long as its done within OEM tolerances? not really "as produced by manufacturer" though aye

I'd also point out that rules as WRITTEN must be upheld - nowhere in the book does it say that the INTENT of the rule is paramount

I'm sorry for the way this has turned out but given we're working off written rules which use an imperfect medium - written language - which is capable of interpretation, conflict is inevitable. Oh, and if I was building one, I would NOT ring for clarification before starting. We ALL work from the book as it is written.

Seems pretty black n white the way rules are written, allows for blueprinting via selection of OEM parts, but not modification of OEM parts.

[Billy]

Seems pretty black n white the way rules are written, allows for blueprinting via selection of OEM parts, but not modification of OEM parts.

Spot on,Living proof that the manual is not that hard to understand,So long as you don't read into it what you want.

[Billy]

Ok so say a head is slightly warped, is it ok to have it machined to return it to flat so long as it is within the manufacturers specifications, afterall this is how the manufacturers make things flat.

Nope,Classic example is Luke Burgess's machine,The reason it has a borrowed engine is because his head was warped and the rules did NOT allow him to have it machinedWhy would you think there would be a rule stating the gaskets had to be the same thickness as OEM if you could alter the cylinder or case height,Doesn't make any sense.

That said,There probably SHOULD be a system whereby provided the owner/competitor could provide proof their cylinder/Head or cases were warped and needed machining,That could take place on the basis that a thicker gasket was used to reinstate the engine to its ORIGINAL spec,Of course then that would require MNZ to rely on its stewards to police and well......

[roogazza]

Jim Doherty most certainly does. A true gentleman too. Best thing (well him and Billy) that's ever happened to MNZ.

Yes Bud, Jim's a rock !

All this chat about 'Production' set the heart 'a flutter ' huh !!!

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yes Bud, Jim's a rock !

All this chat about 'Production' set the heart 'a flutter ' huh !!!

Was Jim that homologated our KR1's. So all done by the book.

[Grumph]

Thats right "AS ORIGINALLY PRODUCED" Not "Oh as long as its an OEM part you can do what you want with it"

Theres NO reading between the lines accepted and Grumphs explanation below that he would not seek clarification is a clear case of ignorance,As stated earlier Ignorance is not an excuse for ineligibility

Sorry, Billy - note it's " all items NOT mentioned ".....As soon as someone wrote note 2, it opened up engine parts as an area which could be changed. BUT of course using OEM parts...

Then when the same someone tied the specs to a service manual - which has a stated range of tolerances for certain given parts - again, it was opened up for a builder to match those tolerances. In my opinion there is no difference between a factory produced head of "X" thickness and one which has been taken to "X" thickness by a builder.....And if that X thickness matches what the factory says is within tolerances - it's legal.

My stated aversion to asking for clarification is based on years of receiving wrong info from MNZ reps. I'm of the opinion that my interpretation of written rules is at least as good as any elected or appointed representative.