Ah "silent T' you're the man for me!

[MisterD]

I'm sorry, but that's clearly bollocks. Ok, there might be a Maori aristocracy getting fat on Treaty gravy, if it's possible to go from being a state-house kid or single mum on the DPB and end up a Minister of state...

[Banditbandit]

I'm sorry, but that's clearly bollocks. Ok, there might be a Maori aristocracy getting fat on Treaty gravy

Yeah .. there might be, but I could not possibly comment

if it's possible to go from being a state-house kid or single mum on the DPB and end up a Minister of state...

Yeah - the "ladder to success" is one of the illusions that keep the system in place ...

Ministers of State are not the people with the real power .. only the illusion of power through Parliamentary power ... but economic power is stronger ... and creates hegemonic power, which Ministers of State are subject to ...

[carbonhed]

I just installed "hegemonic power" on the Blade. One tooth down on the front and a Translogic quickshifter and "Viola!"... hegemony out the wazoo.

[Banditbandit]

stunning mate - it's Friday and who can be serious when there are bikes to ride !!!

[Ocean1]

One illusion which keeps Godzone ticking over the way it is and for the benefit of the ruling class is the illusion that there is no class in Godzone ... this illusion is perpetraed by the middle class at the behest of the ruling class - because it is a great way to keep the workers under control ... i.e. "There is no class - hard work will get you to the top and make you rich - so work harder ..."

Well, y'know mate, it's an illusion that's fed and housed and trained and employed rather a lot of Kiwis over the years.

So, given the choice between an illusion that demonstrably works, (see that bit there?) and one that smells rather a lot like an excuse for slacking off, blaming someone else for the inevitable resulting failure (and is seen to be quite successful in that regard amongst it's adherents) and produces nothing but envy I'll take my illusion any day.

[Banditbandit]

Well, y'know mate, it's an illusion that's fed and housed and trained and employed rather a lot of Kiwis over the years.

So, given the choice between an illusion that demonstrably works, (see that bit there?) and one that smells rather a lot like an excuse for slacking off, blaming someone else for the inevitable resulting failure (and is seen to be quite successful in that regard amongst it's adherents) and produces nothing but envy I'll take my illusion any day.

Whoa .. hang about there ... there is a huge leap into paragraph two - I would not follow that leap at all ... are you saying that a class analysis is an excuse for slacking off ??? I've never seen it used as such ...

[Ocean1]

Whoa .. hang about there ... there is a huge leap into paragraph two - I would not follow that leap at all ... are you saying that a class analysis is an excuse for slacking off ??? I've never seen it used as such ...

It's not even a very small shuffle.

That hard work directly and positively influences income is observable fact.

Blaming some system of class oppression for a lifestyle that doesn’t match your expectations isn’t.

But carry on as you were, I’ll continue to be simply very very lucky.

[saxet]

Well, y'know mate, it's an illusion that's fed and housed and trained and employed rather a lot of Kiwis over the years.

So, given the choice between an illusion that demonstrably works, (see that bit there?) and one that smells rather a lot like an excuse for slacking off, blaming someone else for the inevitable resulting failure (and is seen to be quite successful in that regard amongst it's adherents) and produces nothing but envy I'll take my illusion any day.

Red pill blue pill?

[Ocean1]

Red pill blue pill?

No pill required for access to the real world dude.

You can react to observable real-world events in ways that produce outcomes you want.

Or you can pretend your performance is defined by others, and it's not your fault that you don't have what you want.

The first is simply successful behaviour. The second is a fantasy driven by the need to shed blame for the lack of personal success.

Choose one.

[Pussy]

No pill required for access to the real world dude.

You can react to observable real-world events in ways that produce outcomes you want.

Or you can pretend your performance is defined by others, and it's not your fault that you don't have what you want.

The first is simply successful behaviour. The second is a fantasy driven by the need to shed blame for the lack of personal success.

Choose one.

SPOT ON! If you want to pull a rabbit out of a hat, you must first put one in....

[puddytat]

And both are pretty difficult to change eh?

Yet, often all that's required to feel OK about reality is a change in perspective. http://psychcentral.com/lib/in-depth...therapy/000907

But you already know that....

Yeah I did know that, it was the Ram Dass book that started it then my guru filled in the rest.
And the link is a good read too I still have some work to do, seemingly.

[Banditbandit]

No pill required for access to the real world dude.

You can react to observable real-world events in ways that produce outcomes you want.

Or you can pretend your performance is defined by others, and it's not your fault that you don't have what you want.

The first is simply successful behaviour. The second is a fantasy driven by the need to shed blame for the lack of personal success.

Choose one.

I do not see how that two ideas of yours mean there is no class in Godzone ...

Neither are the two ideas mutually exclusive ...

[Paul in NZ]

Terms like 'middle class' etc come from a bygone era and don't really apply any more. Or at least the supposed definitions don't.. Besides we don't really have enough 'Gentry' (people who don't need to work) to throw up a really good one...

Social classes are really groups of like minded people that seek each others company and a tendancy to marry only in the same group with very little movement between groups. He is definately NOT working class. His education and income have moved him into the ruling elite...

Frankly hes a bit of an arse. His worst feature is that he does not look honest or open and its all down hill from there..

[rustyrobot]

Terms like 'middle class' etc come from a bygone era and don't really apply any more. Or at least the supposed definitions don't.. Besides we don't really have enough 'Gentry' (people who don't need to work) to throw up a really good one...

Yes, I've often felt that this is the case in New Zealand. There are definitely different classes of people (with relatively little movement between them on the whole), but those class divisions defined in mid 19th century Europe are not applicable to contemporary life in New Zealand. For the most part I think that if you feel there are no class distinctions in this country, then you are in the 'middle-classes', however you like to term them.

[Paul in NZ]

Yes, I've often felt that this is the case in New Zealand. There are definitely different classes of people (with relatively little movement between them on the whole), but those class divisions defined in mid 19th century Europe are not applicable to contemporary life in New Zealand. For the most part I think that if you feel there are no class distinctions in this country, then you are in the 'middle-classes', however you like to term them.

One of the roots of the idea of egalitarian NZ was that a lot of the people who came here did so to escape the limitations of the english class system (thats the old system). You might think that it was mainly upwardly asperational working class but there were a lot of minor gentry and upper middle class people as well. They actually wanted to work as Victorian ideals equated respectability with work. In the old system that meant the clergy, military or public service. Indeed they had to expand the types of jobs suitable for the upper classes to accomodate the numbers that had to/wanted to work. Remember that surgeons were basically barbers that cut a tad closer to the bone at one point.

So basically there were the upper or genteel class, titled or non titled land owning classes that didnt 'work' as such... The middle classes who owned property and worked, decent people who were trades people etc who worked but didnt own property and disreputables who didnt or seldom worked (unless it was as public prostitutes and the like) and didnt own anything...

By the mid 1800's there was a lot of cross class movement. Britain had a lot more non titled aristocrats that owned land (in Europe nearly everyone that owned a lot of land had a title). Britain never had the equivalent of the french revolution so the grand estates broke up later or at least went into decline. The lower status gentility had to work as their capital was no longer enough to survive on alone and the upper middle classes accumulated enough capital to indulge in genteel pursuits...

Anyway - as late as the 1940's people immigrated here after seeing pictures of 'working mens clubs' with cars parked outside. ie the usual boundaries were never established here due as much as anything as the lack of numbers to become a self sustaining 'community'.

Since the 1940's however we have seen the rise of a politically aware and educated ruling class. They tend to intermarry and are close to forming a ruling elite that feels entitled to lead as its in their genes. I think this applies to the likes of Hone Hariwera... They are raised in a highly politicised environment and Mr Cunliffe shows all the traits of this.. I really do think he considers himself 'born to rule' and thats a dangerous thing