Programmers

[Sniper]

Is Pascal downloadable? Or tutorials on it?

[Krayy]

I saw that site. Basically I would like to write stand alone programs or alteratively I would like to do what Jrandom does. I understand and know how every bit of a computer goes together and I have built a couple with my late Dad so I am fairly confident in that respect..

Spokey-dokey, let's get into it.

Firstly, how a computer is physically put together doesn't matter. Programmers don't need to know that stuff (even though I was a hardware jockey for quite a few years on PCs and on servers the size of refrigerators) UNLESS they are writing programs or drivers that utilise a certain piece of hardware to it's maximum capability. In this case they would probably be using Assembler (machine code) that is specific to that hardware, and that ain't no fun unless you wear a propeller driven hat. Programs that fall into this category can also include games that require lots of graphics processing as well.

Which brings us to programmer libraries. A library is a collection of callable routines that do a specific task that prgrammers can use to stop re-inventing the wheel every time they start a new project. The most widely recognised library around might be DirectX, which includes libraries for graphics (DirectDraw), sound (Directsound), keyboard and joystick input (DirectInput) etc. The reason I'm mentioning libraries so early in the piece is this....if you want to do write a specific program, it's probably been done before and there is probably a library out there that you can use to do it with. Now a lot of libraries can only be used with specific programming languages without a lot of extra work, so this should be a factor when choosing what language to program in.

Some languages are very good across a wide number of platforms (C, Perl, Pascal) but some are more commercially viable (C++, VBScript). A lot of them are niche and won't do you a lot of good no matter how well you know them (Ruby). One of the main problems is learning how to use the language tools. Compiled languages like C and C++ mean you need to be familiar with how the compiler works before you can create large programs, which can be fairly daunting in itself. You have to learn about Make files, compiler directives, debug information etc. Pain. Interpreted languages like Perl and Python require that you install the binary interpreter (using a setup program in Windows or an RPM in Linux) and you're away. You write a program (script in these cases) and run it without any further mucking about.

Commercial programming is a pain in the arse. You have tight deadlines, usually have a lot of custom code that you need to become familiar with (so you need to be able to read and assimilate other peoples code quickly) and are limited in the tools available to you (i.e. they use Visual C++ or something that you may not be familiar with). Not a lot of commercial enterprises use freeware libraries. Also, to get a foot in the door you may need to have done some higher education courses (Tech, Uni, Computer college etc) in the language that they prefer and have some project mgmt skills so you can show that you can work to deadlines etc.

All that being said, I would choose Perl as my first stepping block. Its got a very similar syntax to C, so C programs become instantly recognisable, it has got some Object Oriented features, but you dont have to use them (unlike Python), it's got thousands or pre-made libraries (modules in Perl-speak) to do almost anything (download them from CPAN or use the PPM program that ships with Perl) and can be used to do anything from CGI scripting with Apache, database work with MySQL or PostgreSQL or Windows GUI apps with Tk. And there are thousands of excellent tutorials and reference docs on the web.

Download ActivePerl for windows here http://www.activestate.com/
(Perl is standard on all Linux distros, so you dont need a link to get it)

[enigma51]

Is Pascal downloadable? Or tutorials on it?

Same site has a pascal compiler and ide www.bloodshed.net

[Krayy]

Is Pascal downloadable? Or tutorials on it?

Pascal is esentially dead outside the classroom unless you want to learn to use Delphi, which is a kick arse Rapid Application Development (RAD) tool that should have toppled Visual Basic if not for the want of some decent advertising.

[enigma51]

Spokey-dokey, let's get into it.

Firstly, how a computer is physically put together doesn't matter. Programmers don't need to know that stuff (even though I was a hardware jockey for quite a few years on PCs and on servers the size of refrigerators) UNLESS they are writing programs or drivers that utilise a certain piece of hardware to it's maximum capability. In this case they would probably be using Assembler (machine code) that is specific to that hardware, and that ain't no fun unless you wear a propeller driven hat. Programs that fall into this category can also include games that require lots of graphics processing as well.

Which brings us to programmer libraries. A library is a collection of callable routines that do a specific task that prgrammers can use to stop re-inventing the wheel every time they start a new project. The most widely recognised library around might be DirectX, which includes libraries for graphics (DirectDraw), sound (Directsound), keyboard and joystick input (DirectInput) etc. The reason I'm mentioning libraries so early in the piece is this....if you want to do write a specific program, it's probably been done before and there is probably a library out there that you can use to do it with. Now a lot of libraries can only be used with specific programming languages without a lot of extra work, so this should be a factor when choosing what language to program in.

Some languages are very good across a wide number of platforms (C, Perl, Pascal) but some are more commercially viable (C++, VBScript). A lot of them are niche and won't do you a lot of good no matter how well you know them (Ruby). One of the main problems is learning how to use the language tools. Compiled languages like C and C++ mean you need to be familiar with how the compiler works before you can create large programs, which can be fairly daunting in itself. You have to learn about Make files, compiler directives, debug information etc. Pain. Interpreted languages like Perl and Python require that you install the binary interpreter (using a setup program in Windows or an RPM in Linux) and you're away. You write a program (script in these cases) and run it without any further mucking about.

Commercial programming is a pain in the arse. You have tight deadlines, usually have a lot of custom code that you need to become familiar with (so you need to be able to read and assimilate other peoples code quickly) and are limited in the tools available to you (i.e. they use Visual C++ or something that you may not be familiar with). Not a lot of commercial enterprises use freeware libraries. Also, to get a foot in the door you may need to have done some higher education courses (Tech, Uni, Computer college etc) in the language that they prefer and have some project mgmt skills so you can show that you can work to deadlines etc.

All that being said, I would choose Perl as my first stepping block. Its got a very similar syntax to C, so C programs become instantly recognisable, it has got some Object Oriented features, but you dont have to use them (unlike Python), it's got thousands or pre-made libraries (modules in Perl-speak) to do almost anything (download them from CPAN or use the PPM program that ships with Perl) and can be used to do anything from CGI scripting with Apache, database work with MySQL or PostgreSQL or Windows GUI apps with Tk. And there are thousands of excellent tutorials and reference docs on the web.

Download ActivePerl for windows here http://www.activestate.com/
(Perl is standard on all Linux distros, so you dont need a link to get it)

Most of it is on target but and understanding of how hardware work is a must if you intend to write decent code. Im must be honest working on a small windows box that use it home dont need to worry about those thing but when you work on servers an understanding of how things work is a must.

[John]

So whats a basic langauge to start learning. I hear C++ is the most common

Definatly start with C once you have gotten to grips with that the syntax transferrs to most languages and makes queer backwards crap like VB.net seem to easy - but then again you can start with PHP and work backwards because php is basicly a C syntax.

[Sniper]

Thanks guys, all this help is great. Im wanting to learn this because I enjoy working on computers and I would like to get programming under my belt for personal reasons.

Stu

[enigma51]

c or c++ is a good starting point then

[Marmoot]

Programming computers is great fun....

Haven't seen jrandom's posting for quite a while......welcome back

[Sniper]

Was just thinking that too marmoot. Welcome JR

[Flyingpony]

c or c++ is a good starting point then

2nd that..

[Sniper]

I stole, I mean borrowed a text book from a workmate on "Beginners Programming in C" hopefully I'll sort it. What else do I need program wise?

[dhunt]

I stole, I mean borrowed a text book from a workmate on "Beginners Programming in C" hopefully I'll sort it. What else do I need program wise?

Yip C is the best place to start and still one of the most popular languages around.

Basically to get going you need a compiler (something like gcc - takes english language and converts to machine language) and a IDE (sometime to type your english language in, notepad would be the most basica IDE I suppose or there are a range of better ones out there that colour the different words etc.

The best way to get started is as you read your book set yourself some project(s) and work your way at them. Don't start too differcult but give yourself something you are interested in. This way you don't get bored of it and will help you learn to apply what you have read.

[Sniper]

Thanks Dhunt

[Jeremy]

I'm going to differ from everyone else and say two other easy to acquire things.

1st choice: Java

Download the Java SDK and get JCreator [Simple editor that just works. No crazy stuff that Eclipse and Netbeans use]

Why Java? It's stable. As fast as C++ (Not as fast as C) and most importantly it gives decent error messages. And error messages are what you rely on when you starting off. And unlike C++ you don't have to deal with namespaces. The documentation is okay, not quite as good as say the MSDN docs.

2nd choice: Visual Basic 6 [Not .NET] . Quick results, most of the problems you'll have are due to poor programming techniques. Buy a decent book. Be prepared to learn maths, your sorting algorithms probably suck because you haven't had proper training not because of the language. Major advantage here is that if you have a runtime error then it'll drop you back to the ide, you can get edit and and resume from where you left off. Stay away from .NET, as you don't want to have to learn to program as well as learn .NET.