Isn't it the counter steering vs 'normal' steering that catches kids out when you take off thier training wheels? All of a sudden the bike won't go where they point it at higher speed.
Praying for tidal waves
Isn't it the counter steering vs 'normal' steering that catches kids out when you take off thier training wheels? All of a sudden the bike won't go where they point it at higher speed.
Sticking to the back roads
Forum whore
Nope. It's the bike leaning when they lose balance briefly.Originally Posted by oneblackflag
If a man is alone in the woods and there isn't a woke Hollywood around to call him racist, is he still white?
Praying for tidal waves
Yes and that...
Sticking to the back roads
Forum whore
Nope. Not "and". You're looking at a fairly decent clip before you have to counter steer. Most kids do half a crank rotation and steer off into the bushes because of the effort they put into rotating a pedal and bracing against the bars at the same time. Front wheel turns, bike leans, kid off. It's not until they learn to relax their grip on the bars that things start working nicely.
If a man is alone in the woods and there isn't a woke Hollywood around to call him racist, is he still white?
Praying for tidal waves
Yes I agree this is the first stage, hence my saying at "higher speed"; once they've mastered the above, they then have to deal with counter steering (with training wheels they could steer by poining the tyre where they wanted to go, the bike leans over onto the outside training wheel; its now riding on three wheels and behaving more like a car steers. Remove the training wheel and turn in the same fashion and you're off).
Sticking to the back roads
Bogeyman
FFS are you lot still banging on about how to steer a motorbike?
It's really really simple, and it matters not what speed you do. You steer the fucking thing so it's under your arse when you're headed the way you want to go.
Now run along and play on the motorway.
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon
Best Frenemy you could have!
Not sure if you're taking the piss or not. Track and road riding are different with different skills and objectives. While there are complimentary skills, learning both properly at the same time leads to a confused rider (seen it).I agree with you. However, folks tend to think that if you use "track skills" on the road, you must be riding too fast. Although on the street one can't take the same liberties as one would at the track, and the riding style on the street can be different, learning important riding skills should still be a must.
Also - aside from the fact that cars lean the wrong way.... many of the principals are the same. Increase speed in corner = wider line, decrease speed = tighter line, trail braking = easier cornering because the front suspension is loaded = more grip on the front tires, look where you want to go... etc. One can practice all of that in a cage. Although, cars can park themselves these days.... that's just not fair.
Trail braking into a corner on the road is poor riding. You get your braking over and done with before a corner while upright, when braking is most effective. Tyres have a grip limit, and giving some to cornering and some for braking leaves you with less available for cornering.
Ta
Absolute bullshit. Please don't teach anyone to ride!
The stability of a bike whilst leaned over, is controlled primarily with the brake or throttle. Release the brakes gradually as you lean, then apply the throttle through the apex and as you stand it up.
This is constant, road, track, dirt, snow. They fall over when they're not fighting one wheel or the other.
In the riders seat
I'm fucking glad no cunt told me that before last weekend, I would have been to worried about my poor riding to survive the 1100km trip I did while trail braking into every corner
Oh yeah I turn in under front brakes too, works for me, fuck what everyone else thinks
"If you can make black marks on a straight from the time you turn out of a corner until the braking point of the next turn, then you have enough power."
Hardcore Biker
I like Ducati Lover's advice.... but it needs some expanding on.
Some of you guys have clearly been riding so long you've forgotten how hard it can be to learn how to steer a bike. I don't blame you, but some of the advice you give is pretty bloody unhelpful and / or dangerous.
This has been my experience of learning to ride a motorbike after years of riding and racing mountain bikes. Talking about how even kids can counter steer because they do it on push bikes is almost completely irrelevant. A push bike weighs considerably less than a motorbike and has a small fraction of the gyroscopic forces acting on it. For a start, no push bike has a massive crankshaft spinning at high revs high up in the frame doing everything in it's power to stop you leaning the bike over. I had to learn this the scary way. I would enter a corner on the motorbike and do the same thing I've always done on the push bike and it wouldn't work. Rather than me steering the bike, I found it was steering me.... and damned if I could get the thing to turn as tight as I wanted it.
What was happening, was I was pushing on the inside bar, but instead of leaning the bike further, my upper body was getting pushed upwards and outwards, and the bike was not leaning any further. To compound this problem, I was tending to rest a lot of my upper body weight on the bars, which mean't my arms were stiff and I was kind of fighting the front wheel. Then when I started running wide I was powerless to tighten my line because I had completely lost my leverage on the bars. My inside arm was straight, and any attempts to counter steer were just causing me to stand my upper body up and tighten up further. I was then target locking on where I was heading, completely frozen on the bike. I was "riding like a penis."
Going to a Prorider training day at Pukekohe helped a lot. Carol taught us the mechanics of the various ways to steer the bike, but for me the biggest thing was body position. On the mountain bike I lean the bike but keep my upper body upright. On the motorbike I had to learn to get my upper body inside the center line of the bike and keep it there. For me that mean't exaggerating how much I moved my upper body to the inside, dropping my inside shoulder and making a point of turning my whole head to look through the curve, rather than just using my eyes. This stopped me rotating my upper body around the bike and running out of leverage.
More recently I have practiced taking my weight off my hands while I corner and using my lower body to hold my upper body. This allows the front wheel to track much better and means that my outside arm is not fighting my inside arm and reducing leverage on the bars. The OP is on a sports bike with low bars and I'll wager good money that he puts a lot of weight on his hands.
OP, try this: Ride through any basic 90 degree bend with your weight on your hands and see how it feels. Then try it again with you upper body leaned to the inside, your head turned and your weight supported by your lower body and no weight on your hands. I'm absolutely certain you will find that the bike virtually turns itself.
If your inside arm is straight, you've run out of leverage and you can't "counter steer". You must always have some bend in your elbow.
Now go ride like a Vagina. (Thanks Ducati Lover.)
"Stupidity has a certain charm about it. Ignorance doesn't." --- Frank Zappa.
Ta
It seems the loonies have gotten on the grass.
I'm out.
OP, go get some training. The arguments on here over what's needed make any good advice impossible to find.
Hardcore Biker
Drew if this was directed at me I'm all ears. I'll be the first to admit I've got loads to learn, but the initial learning curve and the feeling of being unable to make the bike do what I wanted it to do is still fairly fresh in my memory.
"Stupidity has a certain charm about it. Ignorance doesn't." --- Frank Zappa.
Geriatric hoon
Sorry, not for road, or track. This thread is about a relative beginner, it's not supposed to be an esoteric master class. So forget trail braking or turning in under brakes.
Brake while bike is vertical gas rolls on as bike turns in.
How else would you explain all those pictures of Stoner, Simoncelli, Marquez, Rossi et al, sideways, laying darkies, well before the apex?
You won't be able to convince me that those guys are under brakes - or that they are about to ride over the paint.
By the way, I heard an interview with Keith Code a coupla years back, he had just been watching a GP and it had become apparent to him that while trail braking was "an elegant solution" it was obsolete at the top level. He said Toseland and others down the field were trail braking, but the aliens were either on the gas or on the brakes - no half measures. No trail braking.
Last edited by pritch; 7th March 2014 at 15:28. Reason: afterthunk
There is a grey blur, and a green blur. I try to stay on the grey one. - Joey Dunlop
Ta
By all means, rear wheel steer yourself around corners on the road. Been a couple months since there was a KB members funeral now.
And yet still, those same aliens who can do it are braking as they lean the bike. The slowest part of the corner is when they let the brakes go and get on the gas.
I haven't directly said trail braking, I would need a definition before comment. But releasing the brake before tip in, and not getting the throttle open to whatever degree is a recipe for falling over.
Hardcore Biker
Trail braking = Carrying the brakes into the corner and trailing them off (i.e. reducing brake pressure) as lean angle increases.
Those aliens on the pictures could be either on the brakes or on the gas. You can get your ass end coming around while on the front brakes.... saw Scott Russell do it in front of me a bunch of times..... you can also do it getting on the gas.
Look at the brake lights on the video below:
Ken Hill at Miller on and FZ1 (bike being filmed) dunno who is behind him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKpVzWaxQkc
Ken Hill at Vegas on an FZ1, Shane Turpin is on the Camera bike most likely an FZ1, because that is what they use for their camera bikes. Vegas is a bit bumpy and the FZ1 isn't exactly an R6.... so it bounces around a bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2ilmpP6Wiw
Now, you can see on the Miller video, them hitting the brakes while leaned over as opposed to having them on while tipping in (which is easier). However, that track has a lot of double apex corners. Can it be done, for sure. Staring to brake before cornering is NOT dangerous on the road and you don't have to be going at scary speeds to experiment with it. If one wants to tootle and just keep on the gas gently around the corners, that cool too. That's what the Pace is all about. BUT - peeps should learn how to trail brake.... because you never know when things might go wrong.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks