Tightening the line?

[XP@]

Maybe IAMs training is based on the road surface being ideal and in countries where a lot more money is spent on the roads too. I remember one IAMs supporter saying a guy fell off on one of of their training runs when he hit a patch of shingle maybe he would not have fallen had he not followed the IAMs way and kept his eye on the road as well as the instructor he was trying to keep up with.

By all accounts we have better roads than the UK at the moment - theirs have potholes the size of buses (ok so that's an exaggeration) but still it is where Roadcraft / IAM comes from. I think learning the IAM school is better than nothing but you do need to realise it is only one way (and a very popular one in NZ). Discussion for another thread me thinks.
You do have to be careful around training sessions as the new stuff you are learning can push out some of the stuff you have learned, if only temporarily.

[James Deuce]

Maybe IAMs training is based on the road surface being ideal and in countries where a lot more money is spent on the roads too. I remember one IAMs supporter saying a guy fell off on one of of their training runs when he hit a patch of shingle maybe he would not have fallen had he not followed the IAMs way and kept his eye on the road as well as the instructor he was trying to keep up with.

NZ's roads are far better than many other country's. I still don't see that you have a point. I still don't understand why you ride motorcycles or pilot other vehicles, you seem to get no pleasure from it other than telling people that traveling by motorcycle or any other vehicle is so pointlessly dangerous you can't possibly get anywhere.

You are talking a load of shit and for the last fucking time: IAMs is cat food, you ignorant fuckwit.

Just so we're completely clear on my position, I am in no way affiliated with IAM, or any other training organisation. I have reservations about most training methods.

In your case, the only training method I can recommend is a train pass.

[Metastable]

I'm sitting here thinking of how I can write a response so that I don't sound like an @$$ or a know-it-all.... but it might not work.

This is in no particular order of what is more important, because it is all important.... when I say YOU I don't mean anyone, it is said in a general context.

- Like some have mentioned, stay on the outside of the lane and delay corner entry until you know where the exit is.... control your speed depending on your vanishing points. Remember, you should always be able to come to a stop for the distance you can see..... (on the road, the track is different).

- If you accelerate, you widen your turn, if you reduce speed you tighten your corner, that is physics, there is no argument. Unless you brake your ass loose like a dirt tracker or Gary McCoy. That's the only way increasing throttle will tighten your line.... highside ally if you try that and you get it wrong. Speed reduction should be done 2 ways, either reducing throttle or increasing brake pressure. That is one way how you can tighten your line in a corner. Practice this, going at a slower pace add a touch of throttle, then reduce throttle... you will notice the bike increasing radius as you add throttle and decreasing radius as you reduce throttle.

- Braking in the corners..... when are we going to stop treating everyone like they are incompetent, and teach them skills that will save their butts when things have gone wrong? You hear, DON'T hit the front brakes. Well, if you are going into a corner too hot, brakes will slow you down and reduce your cornering radius. Not to mention, that when you are on the front brakes, there is more weight on the front tire (increasing front end grip) and keeping the forks somewhat compressed which tightens the geometry of the bike..... also making it corner better. My take on cornering - unless you are going slow enough to not need brakes, you should start braking in a straight line, start your corner, and keep on the brakes UNTIL -> YOU DON'T NEED THEM..... and you can get back on the throttle. You can let off the brakes once the bike has slowed down enough so that you are comfortable with the speed. There is no exact spot to stop braking.... once pucker factor is down to 0 (if you went in too hot) that's when you stop braking. Note: yes as you add lean angle, you need to reduce pressure on the brakes..... but you can keep on them. If you are on your brakes before you start leaning the bike, it won't really want to stand up. Keep on the brakes and you will make the corner. WHAT EVER YOU DO, DO NOT...... DO NOT, go railing towards a corner in a straight line heavy on the brakes and let go of the brakes just before tipping into the corner, if you are unsure about your speed. When you let go of the brakes, your front forks will unload and reduce the pressure on the front tire. This works against you but unsettling your bike, forks extend increasing trail (increasing corner radius), and reducing the amount of pressure to the front tire (it won't grip as well). Yes the pros lose the front all the time, BUT they are at MAX lean angle and still heavy on the brakes..... a guy riding on the street probably won't be doing either. Don't be scared to trail brake, it will save you, you should be doing it all the time because that is the safest way to corner a motorcycle, car, whatever. Anyone that tells you otherwise isn't teaching you how to ride a motorcycle properly.
(Side note on REAR BRAKES, yes in a straight line, you can add some rear brake before corner entry to settle the bike down a touch.... get off the rear once you have tipped in to keep things more simple .... keep on the front brake if you need to.)

- Get use to lean angles, if you aren't scraping you can go lower.


- It has been mentioned before, but a performance track riding school is the best money you can spend your $AFETY..... even if you don't want to do trackdays.

[skippa1]

I believe sarcasm is the word you're looking for.

In the form used, is better described as Socratic irony.

[Mushu]

Why has nobody jumped on this, you are wrong on almost all the important points.

I'm sitting here thinking of how I can write a response so that I don't sound like an @$$ or a know-it-all.... but it might not work.

This is in no particular order of what is more important, because it is all important.... when I say YOU I don't mean anyone, it is said in a general context.

- Like some have mentioned, stay on the outside of the lane and delay corner entry until you know where the exit is.... control your speed depending on your vanishing points. Remember, you should always be able to come to a stop for the distance you can see..... (on the road, the track is different).

I'll give you this one, you are right here but that's all just common sense

- If you accelerate, you widen your turn, if you reduce speed you tighten your corner, that is physics, there is no argument. Unless you brake your ass loose like a dirt tracker or Gary McCoy. That's the only way increasing throttle will tighten your line.... highside ally if you try that and you get it wrong. Speed reduction should be done 2 ways, either reducing throttle or increasing brake pressure. That is one way how you can tighten your line in a corner. Practice this, going at a slower pace add a touch of throttle, then reduce throttle... you will notice the bike increasing radius as you add throttle and decreasing radius as you reduce throttle.

Backing off the throttle or grabbing the front brake will cause the bike to go wide, only once you have slowed will this allow you to turn any tighter, but by this stage you have already left your chosen line and this can put you in even more trouble. You should be gently accelerating through every corner and the way you set up for the corner should allow you to do this. Backing off actually lowers the bike also, reducing how far you can lean before you scrape.

- Braking in the corners..... when are we going to stop treating everyone like they are incompetent, and teach them skills that will save their butts when things have gone wrong? You hear, DON'T hit the front brakes. Well, if you are going into a corner too hot, brakes will slow you down and reduce your cornering radius. Not to mention, that when you are on the front brakes, there is more weight on the front tire (increasing front end grip) and keeping the forks somewhat compressed which tightens the geometry of the bike..... also making it corner better. My take on cornering - unless you are going slow enough to not need brakes, you should start braking in a straight line, start your corner, and keep on the brakes UNTIL -> YOU DON'T NEED THEM..... and you can get back on the throttle. You can let off the brakes once the bike has slowed down enough so that you are comfortable with the speed. There is no exact spot to stop braking.... once pucker factor is down to 0 (if you went in too hot) that's when you stop braking. Note: yes as you add lean angle, you need to reduce pressure on the brakes..... but you can keep on them. If you are on your brakes before you start leaning the bike, it won't really want to stand up. Keep on the brakes and you will make the corner. WHAT EVER YOU DO, DO NOT...... DO NOT, go railing towards a corner in a straight line heavy on the brakes and let go of the brakes just before tipping into the corner, if you are unsure about your speed. When you let go of the brakes, your front forks will unload and reduce the pressure on the front tire. This works against you but unsettling your bike, forks extend increasing trail (increasing corner radius), and reducing the amount of pressure to the front tire (it won't grip as well). Yes the pros lose the front all the time, BUT they are at MAX lean angle and still heavy on the brakes..... a guy riding on the street probably won't be doing either. Don't be scared to trail brake, it will save you, you should be doing it all the time because that is the safest way to corner a motorcycle, car, whatever. Anyone that tells you otherwise isn't teaching you how to ride a motorcycle properly.
(Side note on REAR BRAKES, yes in a straight line, you can add some rear brake before corner entry to settle the bike down a touch.... get off the rear once you have tipped in to keep things more simple .... keep on the front brake if you need to.)

As I already said using the front brake doesn't reduce your cornering radius, it stands the bike up taking you off your line.

The front brakes actually reduce rear end grip and put you in danger of a slide as well as the fact this is all done in a panic meaning you are far more likely to grab too hard and wash out the front, and front brakes don't do anything useful to the geometry of the bike.

The best bet is to be going slightly slower than you feel you need to be before you go into a corner on the road (even more so as a learner), get off the brakes gradually (it can be done quickly but don't just let go of the lever) crack open the throttle and begin accelerating gently and smoothly (continue to accelerate throughout the corner) turn in by pushing the inside bar (more force will cause the bike to tip over quicker but too much will cause you to lose the front end, also the faster you are going the more force is necessary to tip the bike into a corner) at the same time as you turn in push weight down on the outside peg, this will allow you to recover if the rear end slides and is necessary for leverage on the bars at higher speeds (well over legal speed on the road though) the rear brakes may be used if necessary (or trailed into the corner when you have a bit more experience) but don't close the throttle, it does more harm than good.

- Get use to lean angles, if you aren't scraping you can go lower.

Agreed.

- It has been mentioned before, but a performance track riding school is the best money you can spend your $AFETY..... even if you don't want to do trackdays.

Agreed.

[Metastable]

Sorry Mushu, but we will have to agree to disagree.

For a given lean angle, if you reduce your speed, you tighten your line, if you increase your speed you widen your line. That is physics.... it works in a car too. (unless you steer with the rear).

Also, my post is geared towards someone going into a corner too hot. As far as keeping constant throttle through a corner and best road riding technique .... that's all good.... that's not what my post is in regards.

If someone is shooting wide, you need to steer more or hit the brakes or both.... that's the only way you are going to tighten your line. Anyone who thinks they can accelerate or keep constant throttle to make a corner where they are going too fast isn't doing what they can, to help themselves out.

Don't take my word for it, just look at what the racers do, they trail brake in almost every corner. When they botch a corner and go in too hot, they just hold their brakes even longer. it might screw up their lap time, but they often still make the corner..... sure they might lose the front, but race pace and too hot for a corner street pace are SOOOO different, we aren't talking apples to apples. If trailing the front on a motorcycle made it run wide, the racers would run wide on every corner.

[Tazz]

I sincerely hope everyone handing out advice here has actually ridden a motorcycle before, because it almost doesn't read like it

[george formby]

I sincerely hope everyone handing out advice here has actually ridden a motorcycle before, because it almost doesn't read like it

KB wisdom. Love it.


Pay the money. Do the training. Practice what you learn. Repeat.

Practice in a safe environment. Empty car park or circuit.

Well established training organisations like the IAM base there courses on decades of knowledge & experience, not ignorant conjecture.

Aim to ride well, not quick. Quick is a result of riding well.

Safety first.

Enjoy!

As you were.

[The Little Gixxer]

So far some awesome advice and much of it I have been trying. It seems that a smooth response on the throttle gives me more control both coming in, going through and leaving the corner. This has been hard to achieve as I am still smoothing out the gear changes but taking it easy coming in and in some cases even too slow has helped.

As stated i can always speed up later.

I do find I tend to trail the rear brake more than the front, essentially I barely use the front brake which in itself could be a bad habit to get into but am working on that.

Finding my gear has been tough, sometimes I am dropping too low, sometimes too high to have the grunt to get through and have found changing gears half way through a corner isn't pleasant (along with hitting a running pukeko, but that's another story). I think maybe investing in a gear signal indicator would help but in the mean time will try and learn to hear the gear rev better.

I think the main pieces of advice so far that I can take from this thread are:

1: Get training. IAM's, Track days and Pro-Rider are all valid options so should be done.
2: Control. Yes it is all about leaning in, brakes, throttle etc but without control none of these matter.
3: Practice. Safely and properly learning good habits and techniques before attempting high speed shenanigans.

There is a lot more information in here but these for me seem to cover it most sincerely.

Thanks to all the contributors as it has set me on a much better pathway to riding safely.

[XP@]

Finding my gear has been tough, sometimes I am dropping too low, sometimes too high to have the grunt to get through and have found changing gears half way through a corner isn't pleasant (along with hitting a running pukeko, but that's another story). I think maybe investing in a gear signal indicator would help but in the mean time will try and learn to hear the gear rev better.

Keep practicing on gear changing you will get the feel quite quickly. One exercise you can do is find a clear straight road maintain 50 in about 3rd gear then change up to 4th and down to 2nd, back to 3rd all the time keeping to 50. You can play around with different speeds and gears (probably not 1st gear at 100 tough), eventually you will learn where you are.

[Mushu]

Sorry Mushu, but we will have to agree to disagree.

For a given lean angle, if you reduce your speed, you tighten your line, if you increase your speed you widen your line. That is physics.... it works in a car too. (unless you steer with the rear).

Also, my post is geared towards someone going into a corner too hot. As far as keeping constant throttle through a corner and best road riding technique .... that's all good.... that's not what my post is in regards.

If someone is shooting wide, you need to steer more or hit the brakes or both.... that's the only way you are going to tighten your line. Anyone who thinks they can accelerate or keep constant throttle to make a corner where they are going too fast isn't doing what they can, to help themselves out.

Don't take my word for it, just look at what the racers do, they trail brake in almost every corner. When they botch a corner and go in too hot, they just hold their brakes even longer. it might screw up their lap time, but they often still make the corner..... sure they might lose the front, but race pace and too hot for a corner street pace are SOOOO different, we aren't talking apples to apples. If trailing the front on a motorcycle made it run wide, the racers would run wide on every corner.

On a race track there is no penalty for running wide, ie no other lane with oncoming traffic, if a racer goes in too hot you are correct in that they brake longer but if you watch your race vids you'll see that they run wide and loose some acceleration coming out of a corner you do not have that luxury on the road. They also don't close the throttle and they have ABS and all kinds of other electronic wizardry available that aren't present on a GSXR250. Go back to post 48 in this thread, watch the video and see what Kieth Code has to say on the matter. I agree that physics dictates that if you go slower you can turn tighter but the methods available to you to slow down actually push the bike wide and you must agree if you panic and grab a handful of front brake (which isn't unlikely if you suddenly realize you are about to run wide) is likely to land you in a whole lot of trouble. If he practices the technique I attempt to describe (it's more of an automatic reaction I have to think quite hard to describe it) he will be more in control of the bike to begin with.

Keep practicing on gear changing you will get the feel quite quickly. One exercise you can do is find a clear straight road maintain 50 in about 3rd gear then change up to 4th and down to 2nd, back to 3rd all the time keeping to 50. You can play around with different speeds and gears (probably not 1st gear at 100 tough), eventually you will learn where you are.

Also I found it helpful to count what gear you are in in the beginning (I say it aloud to myself as I change gear), do it for as long as you feel you need to, I continue to do it even now as I get used to a new bike. It seems to help get used to which gears are good in different situations

[Berries]

One exercise you can do is find a clear straight road maintain 50 in about 3rd gear then change up to 4th and down to 2nd, back to 3rd all the time keeping to 50. You can play around with different speeds and gears (probably not 1st gear at 100 tough), eventually you will learn where you are.

Keep left though eh? Someone who knows what they are doing might want to get by.

[Drew]

No one else read the bit about only using the rear brake?

[Mo NZ]

When all said and done I think the best way to learn to ride a bike is in a paddock down a gravel road with a few holes and maybe a ditch on a small trailie, then with a modestly powered road bike on the road.

Anybody with little riding experience considering getting a R1 or even say an itibitty 675 Triumph etc or any bike capable of high performance should get some serious bike time behind them, years would be good.

I remember when those Kwaka 2 strokes came out when we were riding the Trumpies, BSA'S and the Nortons in the 70's. Guys died.

[The Little Gixxer]

Norton, my other bike though not going for now.

Yes I do try to count the gears but still a work in progress I suppose. Thanks for the advice on that.

Yeah I know I should get years but the offer was good so I took it. Don't think the price will be beaten on it for a few years yet.