Tightening the line?

[Metastable]

Mushu - if you grab your front brake mid corner, it might want to stand up your bike especially if you hamfist it a bit. If you are on your brakes before you turn in, it will tighten your turn and it will make your cornering safer since there is more weight on the front tire. Under front end braking, you will lose the front before you lose the rear..... but you really have to be pushing it to lose the front.

I'll share with you an interesting story. The last time I crashed at the track, I was on constant throttle.... on a corner and I lost the front. Now the reason why I crashed and hadn't all day long was because (this is my best explanation interpretation of what happened) just before the last session a huge gust of wind blew a ton of sand around. It collapsed my canopy and as a result I had to unhook my tire warmers.... I put them back on a few minutes before the start of my session and was the first one out. As I reached the apex of the first left hander which is a very long radius left.... the front just gave way... dirty track... tires not warm enough. Now there was no reason to be on the front brakes on this corner.... you never do, but it just goes to show you how little grip the front tire can have in a corner, when it isn't being weighted.

When you see racers going wide in a corner, that is usually because they screwed up their turn in or braking markers.... keep in mind they are pushing to the limit..... hence they run wide, botch their corner and yes kill their speed. On a street I agree that you don't have as much room to play with, but you aren't at race pace either (well at least for the sane street riding folks ), if you are on the brakes going into the corner (if unsure of your speed) and you stay on the brakes you will have a much better chance of making the corner. Granted, if you are unsure of your speed MID corner and are on the throttle and you want to engage your brakes... it becomes a bit more tricky..... it can still be done, but more tricky for sure. That's why I said, keep on the brakes until pucker factor = 0 and you can get off the brakes.

I guess I will sum it up this way.

When do you know when to stop braking? -> When you have reached a speed that you are comfortable with..... wherever that may be.... before entry, apex, after the apex etc.... it doesn't really matter.


Another example - see the picture attached? I blew the corner... my only choice was to keep on the brakes... I have very little lean angle left over with stock foot pegs. Keeping a constant throttle would have sent me to the weeds. I am doing a few wrong things, as mentioned my corner entry was all wrong, I blew my braking marker and my body positioning needs a lot of work on that pic... but the saving grace was staying on the front brakes until I got it turned.

IMO - newer riders (and sometimes older ones too) need to hear a different point of view.... I keep hearing this DON'T BRAKE doing into a corner and it is completely wrong.

Just another note, read The Pace... it is posted on this section on a sticky.... I agree with Nick and have met him in person and he will be the first one to tell you to trail brake into corners. There are two different things here. One..... the way someone should ride on the street is one thing.... what to do when things get a bit harry is another.

[Mushu]

Mushu - if you grab your front brake mid corner, it might want to stand up your bike especially if you hamfist it a bit. If you are on your brakes before you turn in, it will tighten your turn and it will make your cornering safer since there is more weight on the front tire. Under front end braking, you will lose the front before you lose the rear..... but you really have to be pushing it to lose the front.

I'll share with you an interesting story. The last time I crashed at the track, I was on constant throttle.... on a corner and I lost the front. Now the reason why I crashed and hadn't all day long was because (this is my best explanation interpretation of what happened) just before the last session a huge gust of wind blew a ton of sand around. It collapsed my canopy and as a result I had to unhook my tire warmers.... I put them back on a few minutes before the start of my session and was the first one out. As I reached the apex of the first left hander which is a very long radius left.... the front just gave way... dirty track... tires not warm enough. Now there was no reason to be on the front brakes on this corner.... you never do, but it just goes to show you how little grip the front tire can have in a corner, when it isn't being weighted.

When you see racers going wide in a corner, that is usually because they screwed up their turn in or braking markers.... keep in mind they are pushing to the limit..... hence they run wide, botch their corner and yes kill their speed. On a street I agree that you don't have as much room to play with, but you aren't at race pace either (well at least for the sane street riding folks ), if you are on the brakes going into the corner (if unsure of your speed) and you stay on the brakes you will have a much better chance of making the corner. Granted, if you are unsure of your speed MID corner and are on the throttle and you want to engage your brakes... it becomes a bit more tricky..... it can still be done, but more tricky for sure. That's why I said, keep on the brakes until pucker factor = 0 and you can get off the brakes.

I guess I will sum it up this way.

When do you know when to stop braking? -> When you have reached a speed that you are comfortable with..... wherever that may be.... before entry, apex, after the apex etc.... it doesn't really matter.


Another example - see the picture attached? I blew the corner... my only choice was to keep on the brakes... I have very little lean angle left over with stock foot pegs. Keeping a constant throttle would have sent me to the weeds. I am doing a few wrong things, as mentioned my corner entry was all wrong, I blew my braking marker and my body positioning needs a lot of work on that pic... but the saving grace was staying on the front brakes until I got it turned.

IMO - newer riders (and sometimes older ones too) need to hear a different point of view.... I keep hearing this DON'T BRAKE doing into a corner and it is completely wrong.

Just another note, read The Pace... it is posted on this section on a sticky.... I agree with Nick and have met him in person and he will be the first one to tell you to trail brake into corners. There are two different things here. One..... the way someone should ride on the street is one thing.... what to do when things get a bit harry is another.

Trail braking is very different in my opinion to braking mid corner and I will agree that trail braking does help the bike turn in.

Remember this thread is directed at a returning rider who is having trouble with what I consider to be the basics. What I am trying to put across is a method for ensuring he doesn't run wide in the first place, it would be better for him to just read Twist of the wrist 2 (the book is far better than the video and if he were local to me I would gladly loan him my copy) as the technique described by Keith Code is what I am trying to relay. He can try other things to go faster once he is confident he can make the bike go where he wants.

It is possible to brake into or during a corner but you must be 100% confident that you can control the braking pressure and be at the point where using the brake is a conscious decision not a fear response, and therefore in my opinion not something you should be teaching someone who is learning to ride. Even trail braking is something best learned through practice but you must know how to safely turn the bike first.

If you have a look on google images you should be able to find pics of GP riders actually turning with the front wheel in the air, front wheel grip is only required for braking and turning in, so if the op is taught to go in a bit slower and actually ride through the corner properly he can experiment with coming in faster and getting the most out of front end grip once he has the rest figured out, no point showing him how to get turned in as fast as possible if he can't use the proper technique to get through the corner.

[Metastable]

Twist of the Wrist II and the movie are very good for new riders.... for most riders actually. What you say about not wanting to get into trouble is true. When I ride on the street I ride like a pu$$y.... too many unknown variables. I agree with most of what Nick talks about when he wrote "The Pace" which is essentially what you are saying.

Having said all that, IMO trail braking is a key skill that can save a rider. At the point where a rider is at PUCKER FACTOR HIGH... what he should have been doing doesn't matter until he can make the next corner. Knowing how to trail brake is an absolute must have skill and it gets a bad rap. Every rider should be comfortable trail braking. Just like every rider should practice emergency braking from whatever top speed they ride at. Learning how to emergency brake from 150kph when one has never tried it before is asking for trouble. Same goes for trail braking. If someone isn't familiar with it, the chances of things going wrong when the rider most needs those skills will be high.

As for engaging the brakes mid corner.... well, it should never get to that point if a rider is trail braking to begin with.

[Mushu]

Poster 1 has stated his main problem at the moment is with gear shifting down and up again when cornering
and I would suggest he concentrates on that before getting too worried about braking because if he approaches a bend in a too higher gear he could come to grief as he would need so much more braking than if he had changed down gear on the approach in preparation. The posted speed on corners should be taken notice of rather any instruction on how the racers do it with their front wheel in the air. At all times concentration has to be on the road and other motorists, over remembering a cornering "check list" read about in a book. When he comes on this MB and says he now feels confident with changing gears and braking without freaking out he will then be at a level to explore faster and more technical cornering like many on this MB promote but he may just be content to stay safe at the level he has reached too.

Actually if you go back and re-read post #1 this thread is about the bike coming off its intended line due to the op not knowing how to steer it properly, in later posts he gives evidence he wasn't going to fast for the corner, he wasn't speeding and there was no posted speed for that corner, he just couldn't maintain his line. Obviously you have not read the book or watched the video. There are good tips in there for every rider, every bike and every corner. On the subject of how to select the correct gear, my advice was (a few posts back) just to count the gears aloud to himself, the knowledge of the correct gear for each corner can only really come with practice.

Twist of the Wrist II and the movie are very good for new riders.... for most riders actually. What you say about not wanting to get into trouble is true. When I ride on the street I ride like a pu$$y.... too many unknown variables. I agree with most of what Nick talks about when he wrote "The Pace" which is essentially what you are saying.

Having said all that, IMO trail braking is a key skill that can save a rider. At the point where a rider is at PUCKER FACTOR HIGH... what he should have been doing doesn't matter until he can make the next corner. Knowing how to trail brake is an absolute must have skill and it gets a bad wrap. Every rider should be comfortable trail braking. Just like every rider should practice emergency braking from whatever top speed they ride at. Learning how to emergency brake from 150kph when one has never tried it before is asking for trouble. Same goes for trail braking. If someone isn't familiar with it, the chances of things going wrong when the rider most needs those skills will be high.

As for engaging the brakes mid corner.... well, it should never get to that point if a rider is trail braking to begin with.

I think our ideas and advice are slowly coming together, its hard to relay exactly what you mean across an internet forum. And while I agree that trail braking is useful and can save you in some nasty situations, I think first he needs to learn to control the bike in a turn and maintain correct weight transfer or he won't be confident to make it through the turns he doesn't overcook let alone keep himself upright when he does come in too hot.

[pritch]

Having read this thread and seen what I considered some seriously bad advice I thought I had better do some revision. Passed a pleasant hour revising David L Hough, Nick Ienatch, Keith Code and Lee Parks.

Simply put, closing the throttle or braking will tighten the line. If the bike stands up you did it wrong, the braking was too abrupt.

For most corners the slowest point is the point just prior to turn in, from that point you should be rolling the throttle on.
Everything should be smooth. Trail braking, or using the rear brake to tighten the line, are probably better left until a rider has mastered the basics.

Turn in under braking is a technique best reserved for the track where the grip is consistent and a known quantity. On the road with its myriad of variables and constantly fluctuating grip levels it is an unneccessary risk.

KBers love to recommend Keith Codes TOTW2 but I don't think that is the first book a rider should read. Although a lot of the information is applicable to the road, those books are primarily aimed at racers. Better for less experienced riders - "Motorcycle Roadcraft: The Police Riders' Manual", which IMHO is the best first book for anyone and if you only own one motorcycling book, that should be the one. David L Hough's books "Proficient Motorcycling - The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well" and "Proficient Motorcycling - Mastering the Ride" are aimed at road riders and contain a wealth of good information. Although some of the material will require translating from driving on the right hand side of the road. So too will Nick Ienatch's book.

[Drew]

What you have to realize is everyone learns differently and you it appears learn best from a book. After reading your post and others I think riding lessons that have a focus on cornering would be the way to go as so many posters on here make cornering sound very complex and no one apart from myself has said anything about concentration on the road and what other traffic is doing has to take priorty over complex braking theory out of a book. That is best reserved if poster 1 wishes to get into racing in my opinion.

Oh yeah, fo' sho'!

Concentrate on the oncoming cars, that'll make his ability to reduce the turning radius.

Jesus tittie fucking Christ, a technical question was asked. A lot of bullshit has been talked, and a bunch of conflicting advice was given.

The thread is a piss take! If it wasn't started that way, it turned into a piss take when everyone trying to give cornering advice ignored the OP saying they mostly use the rear brake. Why fucken bother to give advice on the middle of the corner in the event the OP overcooks it? He's not likely to get the far into the fucken bend too many more times with that habit!

[bogan]

The thread is a piss take!

Called it!

Can we get a subforum rename, perhaps to "Survival (cough) Skills (cough-cough-splutter)"

[Katman]

The hardest bends are perhaps very low speed tight ones where the lowest gear can be too low and second too high in that situation you have to go around with your clutch lever pulled in and engage second gear as you make your way out of the turn.

Your advice sucks.

[Madness]

Motorcycles. Just ride the fucking things.

[Drew]

From experience on this KB website everyone just loves rubbishing others riding theories and if they were all bullshit we would not be alive to post them in the first place. What poster 1 needs to do is get a riding lesson and to perhaps present the theories they feel make the most sense to the instructor and let the instructor inform them of what is BS and what isn't. I am guessing you would possibly feel some instructors have bullshit theories too eh!

You must know me really well to have formed an opinion thus.

That said, let me clear a few things up. I said bullshit was talked, and the only advise I have spoken against is for the OP to think about countersteering.

As for instructors, it intrigues me that you imply they are infallible. I think it's perfectly healthy to question advice that's given. Ask someone with some form of credibility of the opinion on any matter though, would be my advice.

For the most part, the accredited instructors are undoubtedly teaching a disproportionate quantity of good over bad technique.

I don't doubt I would disagree with them on many things, but I bet I would certainly learn from them. Knowing this, I would apply an open mind to the whole experience. Signed up for a rider training day once, but it was held the day after my birthday party. Prolly wouldn't have been a great idea to show up still pissed from the night before.

[bogan]

I think I debated with you on here last year over what I called coasting was technically called clutch slipping around tight corners.

At the point where you realised you struggle to make the distinction between the two, perhaps you should stop dishing out advice?

[Drew]

At the point where you realised you struggle to make the distinction between the two, perhaps you should stop dishing out advice?

I reckon there's a strong argument that his inability to form a sentence should be a reason, to not type advice at least.

If you remember that thread the poster that started it also called it coasting. Not everyone is technical like you and the word coast does make sense if your moving but not in gear but only to those of us who are non technical obviously.

[bogan]

If you remember that thread the poster that started it also called it coasting. Not everyone is technical like you and the word coast does make sense if your moving but not in gear but only to those of us who are non technical obviously.

How about you worry less about yourself, and more about giving good and clear advice; or not at all (preferably). Coasting is defined as most of us interpreted it, slipping the clutch is exactly that, slipping the clutch, the uneducated should simply not be giving advice.

I reckon there's a strong argument that his inability to form a sentence should be a reason, to not type advice at least.

My money is still on it being a chick...

[Drew]

My money is still on it being a chick...

I have no fucken idea what previous conversation you cunts are on about, so past experience can't be drawn apon to look for clues one way or t'other.

[bogan]

I have no fucken idea what previous conversation you cunts are on about, so past experience can't be drawn apon to look for clues one way or t'other.

Iirc she was telling cunts to coast around corners if they were 35kmhr speed rated or some shit.