Tightening the line?

[Metastable]

Even better Ken Hill does a voice over. Listen carefully, lots of good stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2ilmpP6Wiw

[ducatilover]

I like Ducati Lover's advice.... but it needs some expanding on.

I found expanding vaginas helps me ride too

[Berries]

I found expanding vaginas helps me ride too

Doing it or having one? I'd like one myself actually, be better than my tank bag.


To the OP, lean more. Everything else in this thread comes with experience and you learn that riding not reading.

[pritch]

Those aliens on the pictures could be either on the brakes or on the gas.

Not on this planet. They wouldn't be laying all those black lines arund the apex if they were on the brakes.

The Moto 2 guys back it in under brakes, the GP guys are on the gas.

Might be hyper critical of me but I wasn't totally convinced by the riding clips, the guy often has his head and body on the wrong side of the bike. Like some KBers when they are trying to get a knee down. For comparison: my avatar (he is supposed to ge quite good) - or those photos of Stoner and Simoncelli.

All of which is getting away from explaining to a relative beginner how to tighten the line in a corner?

[Metastable]

You can leave black marks while hanging out the back end with the brakes on. I'm not saying that in those pictures that is what is happening.... I can't tell from the picture. I can tell you I have seen Russell do it in front of me lap after lap at Miller, I've seen other guys do it in front of me too (ya I'm not the fastest nor do I want to be..... but I get some great braking shows). Mat McBride who is a quick Canadian rider, but would probably never win a World Superbike race even if he was given top machinery would do it lap after lap after lap..... it was a thing of beauty.

As for the videos, people can look at them and get their own conclusions..... one can clearly see how racers use their brakes.... and it can be going into the corner, in the corner, whatever.

NOTE: I am not saying to ride how Ken Hill is riding!!!! I'm not saying, go BALLS to the WALLS and nail the brakes.... trail it hard to the apex. Just that it is VERY safe even for the newbiest of newbies to TRY trail braking. You can be going into a corner that you can see through, don't need to slow down, but just tag the front brake very lightly before turn in and keep it engaged into the corner. See what it feels like. That would be totally harmless..... then keep practicing. It is true, you can't learn from reading!!! You do need to get out there and practice! Trail braking, emergency braking, and other skills should be practiced on every ride IMO. That's how you get good at it.

BTW, in this video you can clearly see darkies being laid down while guys are braking (usually using some rear brake too). Sure, supermotos.... but it's two wheels.... same principals apply. Absolutely not advisable for a newbie... but you can lay down a blackie with the rear wheel on the gas or on the brakes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeUK6aOEJKo

[Gremlin]

I fail to see why you would brake into a corner on the road, when you can have your braking finished in a straight line. There is no requirement to fight for a position or keep your space or outbrake someone else when road riding. Further, you can brake harder, with more safety, in a straight line. This is where road and track vary, and you keep referring to track riders and situations.

[AllanB]

I fail to see why you would brake into a corner on the road, when you can have your braking finished in a straight line. There is no requirement to fight for a position or keep your space or outbrake someone else when road riding. Further, you can brake harder, with more safety, in a straight line. This is where road and track vary, and you keep referring to track riders and situations.

Fair point. And for a newbie - getting your braking done BEFORE the corner is a good plan, if you find you have slowed down more than you expected you can always accelerate out of the corner like a pro!

Actually this is the only way I learnt to ride as back then bikes had no ability to brake in a corner - they just stood up!

[Metastable]

I fail to see why you would brake into a corner on the road, when you can have your braking finished in a straight line. There is no requirement to fight for a position or keep your space or outbrake someone else when road riding. Further, you can brake harder, with more safety, in a straight line. This is where road and track vary, and you keep referring to track riders and situations.

Like I said, if one is tootling around and doesn't need to hit the brakes, that's cool. If you are pushing it a bit, but still don't "need" to hit the brakes or you get your braking done before the corner..... it is safer to trail them into the corners, since you will have more pressure on the front tire = more safety. (I know that might be a tough one for some peeps to wrap their head around... but it is true)

Now, every corner is different, but if you live in Auckland, you probably have gone over towards Tauranga and done the Coromandel ..... or other tighter roads were you can get some rock debris falling off the side of the hill. Many of the tighter corners you can't see through them. In those corners, I like to carry some front brake especially on the downhill sections in case there is something in the middle of the road. Already on the brakes = easier to control the bike. No brakes..... becomes a bit more like roulette.

I refer to the track, because one can see these things happening to an extreme level, so it becomes easier to understand why people do it and how it works. On videos it is more evident... and in practice it makes it easier to understand what happens and why.... plus if it is done at the track, then while riding at much slower speeds on the road, it will be THAT MUCH easier to do.

[ducatilover]

Doing it or having one? I'd like one myself actually, be better than my tank bag.

You'd need to shave it often, and finding the bit that you rub to open it? No way.

[Gremlin]

If you are pushing it a bit, but still don't "need" to hit the brakes or you get your braking done before the corner..... it is safer to trail them into the corners, since you will have more pressure on the front tire = more safety. (I know that might be a tough one for some peeps to wrap their head around... but it is true)

Also an excellent way to low side. A tyre only has so much grip to offer, so use it for cornering. Remember, this is the road. You shouldn't be pushing it, you should be able to stop in the distance ahead (or half if there is only one lane).

Now, every corner is different, but if you live in Auckland, you probably have gone over towards Tauranga and done the Coromandel ..... or other tighter roads were you can get some rock debris falling off the side of the hill. Many of the tighter corners you can't see through them. In those corners, I like to carry some front brake especially on the downhill sections in case there is something in the middle of the road. Already on the brakes = easier to control the bike. No brakes..... becomes a bit more like roulette.

Done most roads in the country. If you can't see through the corner then you adjust your speed accordingly, until the vanishing point increases exponentially in front of you (which shows you're now exiting the corner). Also crucial, is your positioning, to offer maximum forward visibility. With your theory, you could also argue that already being on the brake, it's possible you will grab in panic and again, low side.

Advanced roadcraft... you brake before the corner setting your position and speed upon the information at hand, and braking into the corner means you likely mis-read it in the first place.

[Metastable]

Also an excellent way to low side.

Everything you said above is true except for that bit. Unless one is pushing it to track levels a little bit of front brake drag isn't going to lowside your bike. If you are riding the way you described and drag the front, IMO it is safer and easier to corner than not being on the brake at all. Every corner is different..... so it is hard to describe, but if you read previous posts of mine on this thread, I have already mentioned what you said.... should be able to stop as far as you can see.

EDIT ->
Let's put it this way, you have adjusted your speed to the corner, it is a blind left. Now you find out you need to hit the brakes. What is safer, already being on the front brake or having to engage it mid corner? You can do both, but if I am already dragging the front it is easier for me to change direction or stop or both. My suspension isn't going to be as affected as it would if I were not on the front brakes.

OR -> And I know a corner like this that has killed 2 and caused numerous crashes (well into the double digits). We'd even warn people ahead of time and they'd still crash. Scenario (I will flip the road sides to make it easier for you folks to envision). Downhill blind right, but you could see the road up ahead, except that it did vanish behind the blind right. At the point where you'd think the road would start turning left, it would actually tighten to the right even more....bang... they all crashed there. It was a decreasing radius blind corner.

Trailing brakes on that corner made it easy. Even if one was going nice and slow (and most of the crashers were) that OH POOP moment grabbing front brakes mid corner and panicking caused them to crash.

A bit of front brakes going into the corner isn't going to lowside anyone. That is the biggest myth in motorcycling.

[pritch]

it is safer to trail them into the corners, since you will have more pressure on the front tire = more safety. (I know that might be a tough one for some peeps to wrap their head around... but it is true)

Sorry not true. As I said before: on the track there is good grip and the level of grip should be consistent. (OK, we know about Indianapolis.)
The road basically never provides that much grip, and what grip there is may be highly variable. And that's before some dickhead spills diesel or cow shit all over the place. Turning in under brakes is only OK if you can be confident of the surface. Unfortunately on the road that is rare.

Hving said that, there is a section of road; downhill twisties now with nice hotmix surface, where I will most times trail brake into some of the turns. Just so I can still do it if I need to. But on a trip? Definitely not.

[The Little Gixxer]

So everything you have all spoken about has put me in a much better position. It has been a tough haul but the training has paid off. After a recent lane sharing experience with a ute that thought my lane was better than his I can definately say that the more you learn the better.

Still waiting for a Ride Right course but will be on track soon to learn some over skills. Keep an eye for an ugly little 250 and that would be me.