Election date: 20 September

[oldrider]

It's inside forces that are trying to destroy us from within, like Jews. I'm sure Akzle will agree.

Clearly the majority are OK, it's just their (1%) supreme leaders that are problematic!

Unfortunately (Just like everyone else in the world) the rest are expendable as required for the ultimate goals of the 1%!

[Oakie]

Don't you think the NZ economy would have been the same irrespective of who was at the helm? Coz the govt just spends money dunnit?

Well no. The government spends money running itself but they also set (as far as possible) the economic parameters in which the country will operate ... think Minimum Adult Wage, 90 Day Trial Period, interest rate expectations, borrowing etc. Apart from that:

-National, 'right ring', we'll do economic stuff and that'll guarantee a reasonable outcome although some people will hurt
-Labour, 'left wing', we'll put the bulk of our efforts into protecting 'the little people' from the fallout and business can look after itself

It comes down to what I thought right at the start, National would be the fence at the top of the cliff and Labour would be the ambulance at the bottom. Actually perhaps ambulance isn't quite right. Perhaps a great big pile of matresses.

I think the outcome and our prospects for a timely recovery would have been very different had Labour/Greens been in power for the last 5.5 years.

[bogan]

Well no. The government spends money running itself but they also set (as far as possible) the economic parameters in which the country will operate ... think Minimum Adult Wage, 90 Day Trial Period, interest rate expectations, borrowing etc. Apart from that:

-National, 'right ring', we'll do economic stuff and that'll guarantee a reasonable outcome although some people will hurt
-Labour, 'left wing', we'll put the bulk of our efforts into protecting 'the little people' from the fallout and business can look after itself

It comes down to what I thought right at the start, National would be the fence at the top of the cliff and Labour would be the ambulance at the bottom. Actually perhaps ambulance isn't quite right. Perhaps a great big pile of matresses.

I think the outcome and our prospects for a timely recovery would have been very different had Labour/Greens been in power for the last 5.5 years.

Sounds like a pretty good summary there Oakie. Now the question is, have we recovered enough to put anyone else but National in power? At best I think it's a maybe, but taking into account those we have to chose from; as much as I think he is smarmy shit-eater, John Key will likely get my vote.

[Banditbandit]

-National, 'right ring', we'll do economic stuff and that'll guarantee a reasonable outcome although some people will hurt
-Labour, 'left wing', we'll put the bulk of our efforts into protecting 'the little people' from the fallout and business can look after itself

That is so simplistic it is laughable

Who started Godzone down the Free Market path ?? Labour ... Who asked for the free Market path ? Business .. the Free Market path says open up the markets and business will take care of itself ... so letting business take care to itself is a bad thing?

You do know that under the previous Labour Government the World Bank regarded Godzone as one of the easiest place I the world to do business? (It currently ranks us third)

Doing "economic stuff" is messing in the Free Market .. and you think that National doing that is a good thing?

And you think that a party who would hurt people in the name of the economy is one worth voting for, while one that protects people from the worst impacts of the capitalists system is one that should not be voted for?

Do you really value the made up creation called The Economy over human beings? I don't believe that such sociopathic behaviour justifies having the vote.

[The Reibz]

NZ First.
Contrary to popular belief, New Zealand actually has more than 2 political parties you can vote for.
Would never vote greens because im pro oil and gas. Quite a few of the boys are cracking $3000 a week pay checks as engineers on rigs, whats not to like about that? Could buy a new bike every month on those wages.

[Banditbandit]

That's danger money ...

How many people remember that 11 workers were killed when Deepwater Horizon's drilling rig exploded in the Gulf of Mexico ??? Everyone focused on the environmental damage - but 11 workers died in that blast ...

I'd want a huge amount of money to work in such a risky place too

[bogan]

And you think that a party who would hurt people in the name of the economy is one worth voting for, while one that protects people from the worst impacts of the capitalists system is one that should not be voted for?

Do you really value the made up creation called The Economy over human beings? I don't believe that such sociopathic behaviour justifies having the vote.

Now who is being laughably simplistic?

A good economy is essential for a good standard of living.

[Banditbandit]

Now who is being laughably simplistic?

A good economy is essential for a good standard of living.

Yes, I agree with you. No issues there.

The issue is: For who ??? If some people are hurt to protect "the economy" then it is someone's high standard of living at the expense of their fellow New Zealanders. So some person living on Paretai Drive gets a high standard of living at the expense of people living across the valley on Kotemaori Street?

Are you saying such inequities are a good thing?

Sociopathy is "defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behaviour, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behaviour." That certainly sounds like a person who would argue for the value of the economy over the value of human beings.

[mashman]

Well no. The government spends money running itself but they also set (as far as possible) the economic parameters in which the country will operate ... think Minimum Adult Wage, 90 Day Trial Period, interest rate expectations, borrowing etc. Apart from that:

-National, 'right ring', we'll do economic stuff and that'll guarantee a reasonable outcome although some people will hurt
-Labour, 'left wing', we'll put the bulk of our efforts into protecting 'the little people' from the fallout and business can look after itself

It comes down to what I thought right at the start, National would be the fence at the top of the cliff and Labour would be the ambulance at the bottom. Actually perhaps ambulance isn't quite right. Perhaps a great big pile of matresses.

I think the outcome and our prospects for a timely recovery would have been very different had Labour/Greens been in power for the last 5.5 years.

The thing is, from what I've seen govts are always seeking "advice" in matters legal and financial and shift the govt budget around to fund the legislation/meet targets. So I find it hard to believe that NZ would have been any better or worse off under a lab/green govt... and whilst your post makes a hell of a lot of sense, by way of doctrine, it highlights a huge problem in the way the country is "managed". Prevention i.e. the fence (electrified and covered with face recognition cameras and frikken lasers), obviously doesn't work as there wouldn't be the need for mattresses.

[bogan]

Yes, I agree with you. No issues there.

The issue is: For who ??? If some people are hurt to protect "the economy" then it is someone's high standard of living at the expense of their fellow New Zealanders. So some person living on Paretai Drive gets a high standard of living at the expense of people living across the valley on Kotemaori Street?

Are you saying such inequities are a good thing?

Sociopathy is "defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behaviour, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behaviour." That certainly sounds like a person who would argue for the value of the economy over the value of human beings.

If we're talking not raising handouts as 'hurting people' then I got no problem with that. A healthy economy has lots of opportunities for those who wish to increase their own standard of living, to do so through hard work. The fat cats are going to be fat no matter who is in power, I don't like that either.

You bullshit about sociopathy is only applicable when you assume the worst about other people. Most of us who want National in power again want it so to help the people of NZ; the value of the economy is the value of our people, it doesn't have to be one or the other.

[Banditbandit]

You bullshit about sociopathy is only applicable when you assume the worst about other people. Most of us who want National in power again want it so to help the people of NZ; the value of the economy is the value of our people, it doesn't have to be one or the other.

I probably agree - which is why I'm not against a healthy economy, and neither are the Labour or Greens.

't'was Oakie who made the choice between people or the economy. And it was to him I was responding - as in this one -

-National, 'right ring', we'll do economic stuff and that'll guarantee a reasonable outcome although some people will hurt
-Labour, 'left wing', we'll put the bulk of our efforts into protecting 'the little people' from the fallout and business can look after itself

Holding that position and supporting the right wing certainly looks like sociopathy to me - and clearly the accusation is not aimed at people such as yourself.

[Oakie]

That is so simplistic it is laughable

Well it is KB

Doing "economic stuff" is messing in the Free Market .. and you think that National doing that is a good thing?

Clearly I do think what they are doing is a good thing. You say 'messing', I say 'putting good regulation around it'.

And you think that a party who would hurt people in the name of the economy is one worth voting for, while one that protects people from the worst impacts of the capitalists system is one that should not be voted for?

Not 'hurt people' as such, but recognise that people regretfully will be hurt while we fix this mess. No goverment goes out to hurt it's people but a pragmatic one will recognise that steps for the long term good may nevertheless hurt some people now. In my view the difference between National and Labour is that Labour may stop short of taking pragmatic, and in the long term, beneficial action because some people will be hurt in the process.[/QUOTE]

Do you really value the made up creation called The Economy over human beings? I don't believe that such sociopathic behaviour justifies having the vote.

I don't value the economy over human beings. The two go hand in hand and it's about balancing the two out. The economy is what enables humans to exchange their labour for a standard of living. And oftentimes, yes, the human side will rightly be given priority over the economy because the economy is just a tool of humans. On this occasion though (Global Recession), it was the economy that had to be fixed and that had implications on humans.

And no, I'm not a sociopath. My job is all about humans and their welfare (HR Manager). Looking after people is what I do. It's just that I'm a pragmatic person and working in a not-for-profit has made it very clear to me that you can't allow some people's pain to prevent you from taking action that needs to be taken for long-term sustainability.

[swbarnett]

A healthy economy has lots of opportunities for those who wish to increase their own standard of living, to do so through hard work.

In other words, those that are poor in a healthy economy have only themselves to blame? How can that be when the minimum wage isn't even enough to live on? Someone has to take out the trash.

If we value the support workers at the bottom of the economic heap then we damn well better pay them enough to live on.

This is probably the single biggest reason I want that bastard Key the hell out of power.

[bogan]

In other words, those that are poor in a healthy economy have only themselves to blame? How can that be when the minimum wage isn't even enough to live on? Someone has to take out the trash.

If we value the support workers at the bottom of the economic heap then we damn well better pay them enough to live on.

This is probably the single biggest reason I want that bastard Key the hell out of power.

That's an erroneous interpretation of what I said, lots of opportunities doesn't mean opportunities for every single person, but it does mean more than if the economy was in the shitter.

As someone who has voluntarily (to aid business startup) been on less than minimum wage for 12 months and living quite comfortably (which has been a raise compared to my student days), I have to point out that you're full of shit. It's not enough to support a family or household, but it is enough to live on.

[Voltaire]

So vote for Govt and then sit back and wait for things to improve? Sounds easy.Much better than the get off your arse method my old man made me do.