Schools and family expectations

[HenryDorsetCase]

Exactly what I was saying about the devaluation of the Degree. If I had my time again, I'd have been a sparky rather than do the Physics degree...

One of my friends' husband started as an electrician, did City and Guilds then did a B Eng and then a M Eng. Currently does something very complicated at a large industrial concern. I have no clue.

[gjm]

Exactly what I was saying about the devaluation of the Degree. If I had my time again, I'd have been a sparky rather than do the Physics degree...

I'm a frustrated engineer. I love mechanics, mechanisms and making, fixing or modifying them. I blame my parents - they gave me the original Lego technics sets when I was (a lot) younger.

Schools... The difference between expectations and wanting to provide opportunities needs to borne in mind. My daughter is at a private school, costing an arm and a leg every year (good job I'm really a starfish) but there are reasons; when we came to evaluate schools we were unanimously told not to send her to the school we are/were in catchment for. This came from everyone we spoke to, from local parents, the local intermediate school, and other teachers. Trying to get her into another state school was fruitless... Maybe everyone else was thinking the same thing? The two closest alternatives (out of zone) were oversubscribed and both had a waiting list over 200 long.

So we took the financially difficult decision to pay. It's worked out well - Miss gjm is doing very well indeed. Bright lass. And yes - I am a proud dad.
I hope she'll go to University, but we'll not force her to. If she goes she'll not be writing papers on the history of American literature or regional French poetry from the 13th and 14th century. (I actually know someone who did that.)

[mashman]

When I get a 3D printer the first thing I am going to make is a set of hard plastic "brass" knuckles.

because you know.... science

Not allowed to green again... fortunately the coke didn't quite exit my nasal cavity.

[Blackbird]

One of my friends' husband started as an electrician, did City and Guilds then did a B Eng and then a M Eng. Currently does something very complicated at a large industrial concern. I have no clue.

Same route as me except I was an apprentice fitter/turner and went down the mechanical route.

[bogan]

What has been the end result? A devaluation of the Bachelor degree and young people with a shit-load of debt.

Year before I started my BEng they added (hons) to the end of it, as far as I'm aware no other changes were made

When I get a 3D printer the first thing I am going to make is a set of hard plastic "brass" knuckles.

because you know.... science

lol, plastic 3dp is for plebs mate

[Banditbandit]

What has been the drive in Tertiary education over the last 30+ years? To get as many people through University as possible, regardless of the quality of the degree (yes, talk to anyone in Industry recruit the "product").

What has been the end result? A devaluation of the Bachelor degree and young people with a shit-load of debt.

No, the drive in tertiary has been to up-skill as many people as possible. The accusation that is "dumbing down" tertiary education has been an accusation since before your time and mine - so we both hold "dumbed down" degrees by the standards of the generation before us ..

I "missunderstand the nature of knowledge", and you diss a Science degree by giving an example of something that I did in 'O' Level biology?

Ha .. the example was something I did in Year one of a Science degree ... maybe you are right (but I doubt it - it was a little more complex than just counting drosophila (fuck - after 40 years I can even remember the name)

I might, given that I have a BSc in Physics, be biased, but don't expect me to believe that a BCom in Marketing, a BA in Art history or a PhD in Political Science are the equivalent of a BSc or a BEng.

I was not alluding to that argument. I was alluding to the lack of a foundation for "knowledge" which purports to be based on truth - that argument has long gone. So if there is no basis in "truth" what privileges science knowledge over other knowledges?

If you hold a degree in Physics then I would expect you to know who Ernst Mach was - and do you not see the significance of his comment that to be a great scientist requires "intuition and good conceptual skills" ??? and he was supported by Einstein ... If that is the case, then how is science, with a reliance on intuition, more privileged knowledge than any other ?

Exactly what I was saying about the devaluation of the Degree. If I had my time again, I'd have been a sparky rather than do the Physics degree...

Good for you - you have discovered that the value of a science degree is precisely that of any other degree - so you would have rather done something else ..

[Banditbandit]

You do all know that Aristotle complained about the "young people today" and about the education system ...

Your complaints are more than 2,000 years old ... it's just a generational thing as far as I can see ...

[mstriumph]

Unfortunately, parents transferring their own frustrated ambitions to their children is nothing new, they just have greater resources to do it on a much bigger scale now.

(I said something harsh here about children internalising that system - but i've deleted it .... just saying so you can see what a nice guy i am )

[James Deuce]

The Arts and Sciences are supposed to complimentary not mutually exclusive.

I am pleased that someone in this thread knows somene who did Medieval Studies of some sort. I'm disgusted that the same person is too ignorant to even bother conceptualising its worth.

Not one "scientist" worth their salt actually believes the bullshit they spout about Arts programmes. It's the same shit we give Honda riders. But at least Honda riders still ride a bike, eh?

[Blackbird]

The Arts and Sciences are supposed to complimentary not mutually exclusive.

I am pleased that someone in this thread knows somene who did Medieval Studies of some sort. I'm disgusted that the same person is too ignorant to even bother conceptualising its worth.

Not one "scientist" worth their salt actually believes the bullshit they spout about Arts programmes. It's the same shit we give Honda riders. But at least Honda riders still ride a bike, eh?

A similar analogy exists with scientists who believe in a Supreme Being - seems wrong when science is evidence-based. Still, that's the nature of faith, innit?

[MisterD]

If you hold a degree in Physics then I would expect you to know who Ernst Mach was - and do you not see the significance of his comment that to be a great scientist requires "intuition and good conceptual skills" ??? and he was supported by Einstein ... If that is the case, then how is science, with a reliance on intuition, more privileged knowledge than any other ?

Yeah, I know who Mach was and I think you're misunderstanding what he said. The great scientists whose names we all know, had the intuition to see a problem for what it was and be able to formulate an explanation that was testable, then the conceptual skills to do that testing.

What privileges scientific knowledge is precisely that intuition that keeps pushing the boundaries of what we know, wider and wider.

Good for you - you have discovered that the value of a science degree is precisely that of any other degree - so you would have rather done something else ..

I wouldn't be doing (doing stuff with fibre optics and lasers in the Comms industry) without that degree, and my horizons would always have been narrower without that degree. I just have the ability from where I stand now, to say "I'd rather be over there, and I wouldn't have needed a degree to do it."

Cutting back to the chase, Tertiary policy for the past 30+ years has been "If you're clever, you do a degree, therefore if we have more people doing degrees, we must be cleverer as a nation -yay us. If you're not clever, you do a trade."

The upshot is, degrees are worth bugger all, and you need a remortgage to pay for plumbing work. I'll be advising my kids to ignore that bullshit and make sure they do something that will take them in the direction they really want to go.

[mashman]

I'll be advising my kids to ignore that bullshit and make sure they do something that will take them in the direction they really want to go.

Excellent. The world needs more drag artists.

[MisterD]

Excellent. The world needs more drag artists.

Are you sure about that, or just feeling lonely in that profession?

[James Deuce]

A similar analogy exists with scientists who believe in a Supreme Being - seems wrong when science is evidence-based. Still, that's the nature of faith, innit?

Unfortunately.

[Blackbird]

Unfortunately.

Show me the evidence!