Collapse of civilisation (one for Akzle)

[Edbear]

Aren't they just part of the 'it will be okay' group then?

I guess. Maybe different in that the okay group thinks science or politics will find the solution.

[scrivy]

And yet, poverty and inequality are both dropping apparently. I think too many people focus on themselves, and perceived inequalities to the bankers/politicians/etc, and this perhaps clouds their interpretation of the system as a whole. I mean how many of you do exactly the same thing but on a smaller scale? term investments, renting out housing, etc etc, it is human nature to want to build up our own assets; so a system which allows us to do so is not fatalistically flawed.

Can't really agree with you there Bogan.

In November 2007, there were 121.9 million full-time workers in the United States. Today, there are only 116.9 million full-time workers in the United States,

Only about 47 percent of all adults in America have a full-time job at this point,

Approximately one out of every four part-time workers in America is living below the poverty line,

According to the Social Security Administration, 40 percent of all U.S. workers make less than $20,000 a year,

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, median household income in the United States has fallen for five years in a row,

The rate of homeownership in the United States has fallen for eight years in a row,

The gap between the rich and the poor in the United States is at an all-time record high,

Right now, 1.2 million students that attend public schools in the United States are homeless. That is a brand new all-time record high, and that number has risen by 72 percent since the start of the last recession,

According to the most recent numbers from the U.S. Census Bureau, an all-time record high 49.2 percent of all Americans are receiving benefits from at least one government program.


You can see they're stuffed, as are an increasing number of Europe countries.

[bogan]

Can't really agree with you there Bogan.

In November 2007, there were 121.9 million full-time workers in the United States. Today, there are only 116.9 million full-time workers in the United States,

Only about 47 percent of all adults in America have a full-time job at this point,

Approximately one out of every four part-time workers in America is living below the poverty line,

According to the Social Security Administration, 40 percent of all U.S. workers make less than $20,000 a year,

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, median household income in the United States has fallen for five years in a row,

The rate of homeownership in the United States has fallen for eight years in a row,

The gap between the rich and the poor in the United States is at an all-time record high,

Right now, 1.2 million students that attend public schools in the United States are homeless. That is a brand new all-time record high, and that number has risen by 72 percent since the start of the last recession,

According to the most recent numbers from the U.S. Census Bureau, an all-time record high 49.2 percent of all Americans are receiving benefits from at least one government program.


You can see they're stuffed, as are an increasing number of Europe countries.

Yeh I think I had the inequality thing wrong, but absolute poverty is on the decrease. And focusing on a persons spending, rather than their assets, might be what was meant when talking about declining inequality; which seems like more of a practical measure anyway.

[blue rider]

Yeh I think I had the inequality thing wrong, but absolute poverty is on the decrease. And focusing on a persons spending, rather than their assets, might be what was meant when talking about declining inequality; which seems like more of a practical measure anyway.

define asset.

define absolute poverty.

In the industrial world we have a lot of hidden poverty. Our old ones on a fixed income that choose between bills and medicine and/or food, Young ones that have three part-time jobs and couch surf because they can't find a full time secure job that will allow for affordable accommodation and still service the student loan, middle aged ones that have lost jobs and gone through their savings - all of them and so on and so on. Eventually most of these people will end up some Social Welfare (moochers all of them of course) in the worst case we will start seeing hoovervilles and soup kitchens.

[bogan]

define asset.

define absolute poverty.

In the industrial world we have a lot of hidden poverty. Our old ones on a fixed income that choose between bills and medicine and/or food, Young ones that have three part-time jobs and couch surf because they can't find a full time secure job that will allow for affordable accommodation and still service the student loan, middle aged ones that have lost jobs and gone through their savings - all of them and so on and so on. Eventually most of these people will end up some Social Welfare (moochers all of them of course) in the worst case we will start seeing hoovervilles and soup kitchens.

Something or someone of any value; any portion of one's property or effects so considered.
These shares are a valuable asset.

David Gordon's paper, "Indicators of Poverty & Hunger", for the United Nations, further defines absolute poverty as the absence of any two of the following eight basic needs:[11]
Food: Body Mass Index must be above 16.
Safe drinking water: Water must not come solely from rivers and ponds, and must be available nearby (less than 15 minutes' walk each way).
Sanitation facilities: Toilets or latrines must be accessible in or near the home.
Health: Treatment must be received for serious illnesses and pregnancy.
Shelter: Homes must have fewer than four people living in each room. Floors must not be made of dirt, mud, or clay.
Education: Everyone must attend school or otherwise learn to read.
Information: Everyone must have access to newspapers, radios, televisions, computers, or telephones at home.
Access to services: This item is undefined by Gordon, but normally is used to indicate the complete panoply of education, health, legal, social, and financial (credit) services.

I'm not saying there is no poverty, but the mere fact that such people can go on welfare should be an indicator there is less absolute poverty now than 100 years ago.

[oldrider]

True and clever humour!

But reality is that there have always been layers of affluence since the beginning of time for mankind I.E. the haves and have nots!

It's how we navigate our way through that mire that is the challenge of life ... some make it and some do not!

The world and all it's rescources are here at our disposal ... use them or lose them ... simple facts of life!

War is the biggest waste of everything stop that and will the planet be any better off for it? Probably not!

[Voltaire]

There was a doco on TV about Walmart. It painted such a bad picture I googled it to see if was true.
Showed them arriving in town, building a Walmart and the town centre dying.
The 6 Walmart owners being worth the same as the lower 42% of the US household wealth.
The tax payer picks up the tab for the Govt benefits.
and so on.

Here is a summary of it.
http://walmart1percent.org/issues/to...-job-creators/

[blue rider]

True and clever humour!

But reality is that there have always been layers of affluence since the beginning of time for mankind I.E. the haves and have nots!

It's how we navigate our way through that mire that is the challenge of life ... some make it and some do not!

The world and all it's rescources are here at our disposal ... use them or lose them ... simple facts of life!

War is the biggest waste of everything stop that and will the planet be any better off for it? Probably not!

I have no issue with accumulation some 'affluence', however I have an issue with 'affluent' people deciding how I should live my life, How I should earn my life, How much my life is worth and so on and so on. Point in case is our "representatives' in government are usually very rich peeps.....do they really represent us or their class of very affluent?

War is not a waste, war is an excellent racket for those that can afford to wage it....for those forced to fight it? Well, bummer they must not be affluent enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

[scrivy]

I'm not saying there is no poverty, but the mere fact that such people can go on welfare should be an indicator there is less absolute poverty now than 100 years ago.

The way governments afford welfare is to borrow even more money.....
Who's gunna pay that back???? Hell, let's all go on welfare, we'll just borrow more....

Why are there so many countries in debt?? Because there's less people in employment and more people in poverty.......

[bogan]

The way governments afford welfare is to borrow even more money.....
Who's gunna pay that back???? Hell, let's all go on welfare, we'll just borrow more....

Why are there so many countries in debt?? Because there's less people in employment and more people in poverty.......

You're still talking about relative poverty, absolute poverty isn't concerned with distribution of money or debt. And the borrowing to pay for welfare is a pretty simplistic and flawed evaluation of the system.

[rustyrobot]

You're still talking about relative poverty, absolute poverty isn't concerned with distribution of money or debt. And the borrowing to pay for welfare is a pretty simplistic and flawed evaluation of the system.

It's not really like you can say they borrow to pay for welfare though. They borrow to pay for the short-fall in tax take. Perhaps the welfare is all covered and they are just borrowing for defence and roading (for example).

I think I get what you were saying above though. It's sort of like Banditbandit's statement (in another thread) that 50% of people in New Zealand are below average intelligence. It doesn't matter how you measure intelligence, or how smart you get as a population, this is always going to be the case. In a similar way, a large number of people are in poverty relative to those with wealth - but relative to the conditions of poverty 100 years ago they are living it large.

[scrivy]

You're still talking about relative poverty, absolute poverty isn't concerned with distribution of money or debt. And the borrowing to pay for welfare is a pretty simplistic and flawed evaluation of the system.

I do understand where you're coming from, but, if there was no welfare system in place, would there be more people living in absolute poverty in NZ today?

[oldrider]

I do understand where you're coming from, but, if there was no welfare system in place, would there be more people living in absolute poverty in NZ today?

Yes!

During the depression of the 1930's the shops were full of goods the populance had no jobs/no money to consume and factories were closed from over producing!

The only reason for production is consumption, everything ground to a halt, starving people in a land and time of plenty FFS!

Welfare was (invented) required to make sure that in future the populance had just sufficient to live on to keep the system moving!

It's about the minimum required for the economy, it's got very little to do with minimum wage and starvation!

[mashman]

There was a doco on TV about Walmart. It painted such a bad picture I googled it to see if was true.
Showed them arriving in town, building a Walmart and the town centre dying.
The 6 Walmart owners being worth the same as the lower 42% of the US household wealth.
The tax payer picks up the tab for the Govt benefits.
and so on.

Here is a summary of it.
http://walmart1percent.org/issues/to...-job-creators/

They're not alone when it comes to corporate welfare

1. Boeing: $13,174,075,797
2. General Motors: $3,494,237,703
3. Royal Dutch Shell: $2,038,202,298
4. Dow Chemical: $1,408,228,374
5. Goldman Sachs: $661,979,222
6. Google: $632,044,922
7. Walt Disney: $381,525,727
8. Wal-Mart Stores: $149,942,595
9. Abercrombie and Fitch: $23,070,479
10. Bed Bath & Beyond: $10,385,041

[unstuck]

Collapsible did you say........
http://themindunleashed.org/2014/03/...wered-sun.html