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Thread: Govt 'covering up' school funding plan

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banditbandit View Post
    I generally wonder why we pick up an assessment system designed by a country ranked lower than us on the OECD education scale to test the product of the "lower" colonial education systems to see if they meet the English standards for entry into their universities ...
    Simply put - Its a better system, it teaches more advanced subjects at a younger age than the current NZ system (which IMO - was a joke).

    Something that makes me more qualified to speak on this is that I actually went through both educational systems - I am sure that there are many many schools in the UK that suck, as I said, I went to a Grammar School (above the normal schools, but below Public schools)

    The above is also why I asked for a Source - I admitedly don't have time to look at how the ranking was calculated, but anecdottaly (and backed up by multiple members here) the NZ system lags behind the UK by (in some areas) 4 years....
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    Hmm .. see the OECD stats say you are wrong ..
    "So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banditbandit View Post
    Hmm .. see the OECD stats say you are wrong ..
    Thats the great thing about Stats - you can use them to prove anything.....

    I should look at that report to see if I can account for the difference between the report and the reality of myself and others.
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    Bwhahahaha Yes ...

    But only edyamakated people can play with stats to prove anything ..
    "So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banditbandit View Post
    Bwhahahaha Yes ...

    But only edyamakated people can play with stats to prove anything ..
    If you take the stats by of fire engines vs number of fires in a city and control for city size, you can see that as the number of fire engines increase, so do the number of fires.

    From this we conclude that Fire Engines do infact cause Fires - afterall, they have Fire in the name....

    (first lesson on Statistics I had - Correlation does not equal Causation)
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluninja View Post
    The real problem here as I see it is schools. It's removing choice and responsibility from parents about the education of the children and handing it over to the state. Then everyone moans about one size fits all teaching and the lack of resources.
    Distribution of resources based on need? Again this is a judgement call based on what the teacher, school, or society perceives as need; not about what the child (or their parents) perceive as a need. The parent and not the state has the responsibility for raising their children. Parents need the power and resources to get the best assistance in educating their children. I see current society as marginalising parents role in education, taking power away from them. As an example, try taking a kid camping for a week during school and see the flak. However a school can take the kids on the same camping trip during term whilst rorting money from the parents for their child's state funded education.
    I see education as a two-pronged approach. Schools are there to raise the education level of the population as a whole, building on what the parents have already done. It is also desireable if the schools or parents, or both, are able to identify the potential of the individual and give them what they need to achieve it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluninja View Post
    School age education is not about just learning information, it's about learning skills. How to learn, how to study, how to identify the required resources for a given task, how to communicate ideas.
    Agreed. Or as I usually put it, teaching people how to think.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluninja View Post
    Why do we need an educated society? why not en ethical society, a caring society, a productive society? I realise they are not mutually exclusive, it's just where the primary focus should be. Are we "better" than aboriginal societies just cos we know more stuff?
    Knowing stuff doesn't mean you're educated. What I mean by an educated society is one where most people know how to think.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluninja View Post
    Looks like you're just repeating my words back to me. So you agree then?
    It seems that we may well do on a fair amount of this. The written word can be a poor medium sometimes (my wife has been studying exactly that for her PhD).

    Quote Originally Posted by bluninja View Post
    I now feel like a poorly performing teacher in that I clearly haven't found the correct way to communicate with you
    No worries, we're gettting there. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluninja View Post
    Being "eager to learn" is in no way proportional to learning ability; you don't have to be a bright student to be eager to learn.
    Indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluninja View Post
    You point out lecturers with a limited aptitude and attitude to teaching. One could extrapolate that as it's university then the students MUST be eager to learn but I don't see this as a truism.
    Today you increasingly have to have a university degree to get a decent job. This doesn't make for the best motivation for higher learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluninja View Post
    This issue raised here is lecturers with one teaching style that works only for those that respond to, lets call it "Bright Student Style", but are unable to teach others with a different style. Those eager to learn may well have different learning styles.
    The main issue raised was that the students were increasingly poorly prepared for university by the school system. What has worked in the past is no longer working as well. The knee-jerk reaction has been to lower standards and make the courses easier rather than teaching to the students they now have.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluninja View Post
    BTW when you go to university to study for a degree it's normally described as "Reading" eg Reading Physics rather than "Learning" or "Being Taught" physics.
    Yes, very good point. This is not a term that was traditionaly used in NZ. I've heard it more from the US and UK. However, it does fit quite well when you consider that we were expected to do four hours of private study for every hour of lecture. This ties in nicely with what I was saying about self teaching with a little guidance.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    Searches on the topic produce returns that make it difficult to avoid the conclusion that academia have either invented the word "equity" or hijacked it. Presumably because the word equality didn't produce the desired results.

    So let's narrow that down a bit, eh? Equality of access to resources is what's usually considered a fair suck of the sav. Equality of outcomes is what's increasingly being proposed as "fair".

    What's "fair" in this case is giving every kid equal access to education resources. Attempting to apply sufficient resources to the lower performers to achieve similar results to the top performers is a waste of those resources, and it deprives the high performers of their share.

    Even the old socialist states supposedly attempted only the former, "Equity of outcomes" is a step beyond that again. In short, it's a piece of radical bullshit presented as representing the only "fair" way to manage society. In fact it's far from it, and more to the point it's hugely wasteful and anything like widespread implementation would be civil suicide.
    I'm not suggesting that the dumbest kids get all the resources and the brightest ones get none. That would just be silly.

    Imagine the case of an intelectually handicapped kid. No amount of help will bring them to the level of the IQ elite.

    What I am suggesting is that the resource needs to be apportioned disparitly so that the majority of the students achieve the basic level of education that schools have been tasked with teaching.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by swbarnett View Post
    I'm not suggesting that the dumbest kids get all the resources and the brightest ones get none. That would just be silly.

    Imagine the case of an intelectually handicapped kid. No amount of help will bring them to the level of the IQ elite.

    What I am suggesting is that the resource needs to be apportioned disparitly so that the majority of the students achieve the basic level of education that schools have been tasked with teaching.
    Yes, I understand what you said, equity of outcomes rather than equal shares of resources. By definition that's inequitable and unfair. And if schools need to allocate resources unfairly in order to achieve what many see as an inadequate minimum standard then they're doing it wrong.

    They should be tasked with maximising the performance of every child in their school, how can they do that by denying high performers the share of the resources their parents taxes paid for? If that's not the case then you've got an inherently unfair education system. One the performance of which will continue to decrease as a result of such silly notions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    Yes, I understand what you said, equity of outcomes rather than equal shares of resources. By definition that's inequitable and unfair. And if schools need to allocate resources unfairly in order to achieve what many see as an inadequate minimum standard then they're doing it wrong.

    They should be tasked with maximising the performance of every child in their school, how can they do that by denying high performers the share of the resources their parents taxes paid for? If that's not the case then you've got an inherently unfair education system. One the performance of which will continue to decrease as a result of such silly notions.
    School's are tasked with maximising the potential of every student, however they are woofully underfunded, under resourced and dealing with some very complex social issues. Believe me most teachers do there very best with what is available and we do have a world class system, not that our government wants you to believe this because there is no way to make a dollar out of the school system. It's interesting that very few ministers have ever taught at any type of school, yet they try to male decisions for us that just end up eroding what is done in schools across New Zealand. I believe it is time the dickheads left us alone and stopped using the future generations as a political football to reinforce their own stupid beliefs.

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    Govt 'covering up' school funding plan

    What a load of bollocks. Teachers don't deal with anything more complex than deflecting punishment from bullies so the bullies can go on to become Bankers, Lawyers, Doctors and Politicians. Teachers are a subset underclass of our overlords and they forget from time to time their function. Requires a firm hand from Government to bring them back into line up to and including payroll systems that don't. Haven't met a teacher I'd trust yet. As for "maximising potential", rubbish! There job has always been to sort the elite from the muck spreaders. Someone forgot the rules and let teachers become politicians and it all went wrong from there.
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Deuce View Post
    What a load of bollocks. Teachers don't deal with anything more complex than deflecting punishment from bullies so the bullies can go on to become Bankers, Lawyers, Doctors and Politicians. Teachers are a subset underclass of our overlords and they forget from time to time their function. Requires a firm hand from Government to bring them back into line up to and including payroll systems that don't. Haven't met a teacher I'd trust yet. As for "maximising potential", rubbish! There job has always been to sort the elite from the muck spreaders. Someone forgot the rules and let teachers become politicians and it all went wrong from there.
    Wow obviously you had a hard time at school, and from this retheoric know fuck all teachers. It's a fucking hard job made harder by people assuming because they were once at school they know all about my profession. I could spend hours detailing all the shit we have to put up with but in your case it would probably fall on deaf ears. Needless to say in an average class of 25 students there are 25 different backgrounds they bring into the class and we need to cater for them all. As for trusting teachers - if you can't then I wonder how you are going to trust the next generation after all we are charged with equipping them to be members of the society we live in. Sorry if this sounds harsh but I am sick to death of teaher slamming. Incidently I am not a sub class off the overleods as you put it, I am just a man trying to do the best fucking job I can, and hopefully somewhere along the way trying to engage my students in thinking and learning.

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    Hypothetical questions:

    Child A is developmentally delayed with a documented and supposedly "understood" chromosomal disorder and while verbal is VERY difficult to understand.

    Child B is 2 chronological years younger than Child A but bigger and very easy to understand.

    When Child B takes Child A's lunch box and empties the contents on his head and then grabs his ears and bashes his head against the wall and Child A retaliates, blacking the eye of his tormentor, which child does the average school principal support and who's parents are called to school?

    When Child D, a peer and "friend" of Child C smashes Child C's face into a rock garden "for fun" while Child C was reading a book on the step outside his classroom, destroying both newly acquired adult front upper teeth in the process and generating a bill of $3600 and ongoing psych issues (night terrors, etc, etc) because it was a total surprise king hit, which parents are called in to explain themselves and which child is deemed socially awkward and therefore deserving of having their face smashed in from behind?

    Child E has a condition that is poorly understood, but when it comes upon him means he can't walk and talk. The school supports him by isolating him from his peers (without the knowledge of his parents) and the head of the Junior School has been caught on more than one occasion screaming at him to, "Get up, you're faking it!", by the parents, who has to go to a BoT meeting and be told to not lodge a complaint about the treatment of Child E or face having to find another school?

    More than one family have this going on. When Child F is tormented physically by a pack of kids who leave him naked in the playing field while standing in a ring around him chanting "piggy, piggy", who's parents are called into school and told, "Well you have to understand that he is overweight".

    When Child C is physically and verbally abused by a teacher who threatens to call the Police on him if he comes any closer, when all he is doing is picking up Child A, AFTER school and making sure his bags are packed and sandals on the right feet and the subsequent screaming fit (there were witnesses - busy time with kids being picked up) leaves Child C unable to go to school for a couple of days and when he does go back endures a systematic application of areas where he is allowed to go in the school and is banned from Child A's school block, despite later being exonerated after the parents hire a child psychologist to monitor the situation who recommends that the teacher be removed from the profession and ensures this is carried out, who footed the bill? Was there an apology?

    There never is. Teachers are always right.

    It's about time you folk manned up and provided the positive role models you all so desperately think you are. I have no sympathy for the plight of teachers because I've yet to find one who is actively engaged in teaching kids from a positive viewpoint and capable of treating their parents like adults, not big kids who need to be lectured about how shitty their kids are (watch the retort that all the shit above was deserved). When no one says anything nice about you or your kids it's hardly surprising that you develop chips in places that there shouldn't be chips.
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Deuce View Post
    Hypothetical questions:

    Child A is developmentally delayed with a documented and supposedly "understood" chromosomal disorder and while verbal is VERY difficult to understand.

    Child B is 2 chronological years younger than Child A but bigger and very easy to understand.

    When Child B takes Child A's lunch box and empties the contents on his head and then grabs his ears and bashes his head against the wall and Child A retaliates, blacking the eye of his tormentor, which child does the average school principal support and who's parents are called to school?

    When Child D, a peer and "friend" of Child C smashes Child C's face into a rock garden "for fun" while Child C was reading a book on the step outside his classroom, destroying both newly acquired adult front upper teeth in the process and generating a bill of $3600 and ongoing psych issues (night terrors, etc, etc) because it was a total surprise king hit, which parents are called in to explain themselves and which child is deemed socially awkward and therefore deserving of having their face smashed in from behind?

    Child E has a condition that is poorly understood, but when it comes upon him means he can't walk and talk. The school supports him by isolating him from his peers (without the knowledge of his parents) and the head of the Junior School has been caught on more than one occasion screaming at him to, "Get up, you're faking it!", by the parents, who has to go to a BoT meeting and be told to not lodge a complaint about the treatment of Child E or face having to find another school?

    More than one family have this going on. When Child F is tormented physically by a pack of kids who leave him naked in the playing field while standing in a ring around him chanting "piggy, piggy", who's parents are called into school and told, "Well you have to understand that he is overweight".

    When Child C is physically and verbally abused by a teacher who threatens to call the Police on him if he comes any closer, when all he is doing is picking up Child A, AFTER school and making sure his bags are packed and sandals on the right feet and the subsequent screaming fit (there were witnesses - busy time with kids being picked up) leaves Child C unable to go to school for a couple of days and when he does go back endures a systematic application of areas where he is allowed to go in the school and is banned from Child A's school block, despite later being exonerated after the parents hire a child psychologist to monitor the situation who recommends that the teacher be removed from the profession and ensures this is carried out, who footed the bill? Was there an apology?

    There never is. Teachers are always right.

    It's about time you folk manned up and provided the positive role models you all so desperately think you are. I have no sympathy for the plight of teachers because I've yet to find one who is actively engaged in teaching kids from a positive viewpoint and capable of treating their parents like adults, not big kids who need to be lectured about how shitty their kids are (watch the retort that all the shit above was deserved). When no one says anything nice about you or your kids it's hardly surprising that you develop chips in places that there shouldn't be chips.
    Hypothetical response - you have mentioned 5 children with very complex disorders that were in this instance treated wrongly IMHO but expect teachers to understand these completely, when most other members of society wouldn't and would probably respond similarly. Some of the students you mentioned need special help which is slowly being removed from school because of the costs involved yet it is easier to blame us than the government.
    We are not super human, but most of the people I haved worked with over the years are "actively engaged in teaching kids from a positive viewpoint". If not they tend to last only a short time in teaching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mashman View Post
    So you punish people for not trying hard enough.
    Try or not, if no attempt is made to improve one's situation, why should more resources be thrown at them? Laziness should not be rewarded.

    As for teachers and their pay, my wife works in the high school system, which is a real eye-opener. She is paid the same as any other staff in her job for the same length of time, but she does many more jobs with much greater success and often is called on by these so-called peers to help them. To repeat...for the same pay. She is a more effective staff member so why isn't she paid more? Same as teachers.

    Simple really...
    Do you realise how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?

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