Govt 'covering up' school funding plan

[imdying]

Children A, C, and F, sound like retards that would be best served by a bullet to the back of the head

[bogan]

You probably don't know it, but you've just made the point(s).

So the incipient communist works short hours, considers a bit of after hours on that is going the extra mile, and wonders why people know communism won't work?

[mashman]

So the incipient communist works short hours, considers a bit of after hours on that is going the extra mile, and wonders why people know communism won't work?

Someone has to look after the kids and even though it'd cost me less money to give them to someone else for an extra couple of hours, I like them and am taking more of an interest in their education as I am the main caregiver at home. The 10 year old has already concluded that the work that the binmen are doing is more important than that of Doctors. Seems I'm bringing up little human beings who won't be relying on rewards as a reason to further themselves and will also value people irrespective of their "station" in life. Something that is severely lacking in most of the adult population. I can only assume that your parents were failures as parents as they didn't seem to teach any of you how to be a human being. Ironing, gotta love it, well, I do, your leaders and employers positively bank on you and your entitlement complexes.

[bogan]

Someone has to look after the kids and even though it'd cost me less money to give them to someone else for an extra couple of hours, I like them and am taking more of an interest in their education as I am the main caregiver at home. The 10 year old has already concluded that the work that the binmen are doing is more important than that of Doctors. Seems I'm bringing up little human beings who won't be relying on rewards as a reason to further themselves and will also value people irrespective of their "station" in life. Something that is severely lacking in most of the adult population. I can only assume that your parents were failures as parents as they didn't seem to teach any of you how to be a human being. Ironing, gotta love it, well, I do, your leaders and employers positively bank on you and your entitlement complexes.

Oh everyone has excuses as to why they should work less, the point is if everyone is free to ride on their excuses, there won't be enough bin men, let alone dr's.
Heh, now back to the personal attack eh, never let reason get in the way of a good 'discussion'

[mashman]

Oh everyone has excuses as to why they should work less, the point is if everyone is free to ride on their excuses, there won't be enough bin men, let alone dr's.
Heh, now back to the personal attack eh, never let reason get in the way of a good 'discussion'

The free ride has always been there, it's called benefits. I don't see an overly large uptake... and even though binmen don't seem to get paid as much as Doctors, there's still enough of them. Maybe, just maybe people are happy to do the shitty jobs because they realise that they're being of use in their community. I bet that thought would scare the socks off the majority of the population.
No personal attack, just an observation.

[bogan]

The free ride has always been there, it's called benefits. I don't see an overly large uptake... and even though binmen don't seem to get paid as much as Doctors, there's still enough of them. Maybe, just maybe people are happy to do the shitty jobs because they realise that they're being of use in their community. I bet that thought would scare the socks off the majority of the population.
No personal attack, just an observation.

All the guys I've talked to working shitty jobs have been doing it for the money; so I think your maybe is more of a maybe not.
An observation based on me disagreeing with you... yeh, that's not a personal attack at all. I'll happily call you pants-on-head-retarded cos you have demonstrated it by saying increasing gdp is money laundering, and the countries debt can be solved by selling million dollar hammers. Me and my siblings have yet to demonstrate we don't know how to be human beings; it also raises the question of what you think we were raised to be? I mean none of us moo...

[mashman]

All the guys I've talked to working shitty jobs have been doing it for the money; so I think your maybe is more of a maybe not.
An observation based on me disagreeing with you... yeh, that's not a personal attack at all. I'll happily call you pants-on-head-retarded cos you have demonstrated it by saying increasing gdp is money laundering, and the countries debt can be solved by selling million dollar hammers. Me and my siblings have yet to demonstrate we don't know how to be human beings; it also raises the question of what you think we were raised to be? I mean none of us moo...

WOW. Do they know they can get free money on the dole and spend all day doing what they want?

So you identified yourself as a part or the "didn't seem to teach any of you how to be a human being." group. Fair enough. In which case by all means take it as a personal attack instead of a mere observation.

Ahhhhh I see, still harping on about GDP as money laundering and million $ hammers.

Money laundering "Money laundering is the process whereby the proceeds of crime are transformed into ostensibly legitimate money or other asset". GDP is forgery as the creation of money printed by plucking it out of thin air and backing it by assets that are also pulled out of thin air i.e. govt bonds and such.

In a country that has to produce a GDP in order to stop the world from going into financial shock (because they went all R.B.E.), it can then arbitrarily choose which products to assign value to. It's nothing more than using the system against itself. Instead of people earning 100k, they can earn $1 for Banco el NZo and the revenue that 10 people would have generated will be offset by selling 1 hammer in the local economy for $1 million. Supply and demand. Make 1 hammer at a time and sell it for $1 million coz hammers is special like. Then make 1 more. Then make 1 more. It doesn't have to stop at hammers ya know and it would allow the country to lower its export prices in order to gain a competitive advantage overseas. You also have a highly educated workforce that also becomes competitive in the ever expanding global market place as you can charge them out at $1. GDP is only a number that values the output of the country after all. So make it up to a predetermined value each year to appease them overseas bean counters type folk. Kids do it every day, so if you leave that perception there and educate no different, why wouldn't it work? Ahhhhhh yes, because adults don't like it that way because they're entitled to more than their lesser counter part.

Dunno what you were raised to be, doesn't seem to be human though. Victorian man maybe, depends on what you identify with.

[bogan]

WOW. Do they know they can get free money on the dole and spend all day doing what they want?

So you identified yourself as a part or the "didn't seem to teach any of you how to be a human being." group. Fair enough. In which case by all means take it as a personal attack instead of a mere observation.

Ahhhhh I see, still harping on about GDP as money laundering and million $ hammers.

Money laundering "Money laundering is the process whereby the proceeds of crime are transformed into ostensibly legitimate money or other asset". GDP is forgery as the creation of money printed by plucking it out of thin air and backing it by assets that are also pulled out of thin air i.e. govt bonds and such.

In a country that has to produce a GDP in order to stop the world from going into financial shock (because they went all R.B.E.), it can then arbitrarily choose which products to assign value to. It's nothing more than using the system against itself. Instead of people earning 100k, they can earn $1 for Banco el NZo and the revenue that 10 people would have generated will be offset by selling 1 hammer in the local economy for $1 million. Supply and demand. Make 1 hammer at a time and sell it for $1 million coz hammers is special like. Then make 1 more. Then make 1 more. It doesn't have to stop at hammers ya know and it would allow the country to lower its export prices in order to gain a competitive advantage overseas. You also have a highly educated workforce that also becomes competitive in the ever expanding global market place as you can charge them out at $1. GDP is only a number that values the output of the country after all. So make it up to a predetermined value each year to appease them overseas bean counters type folk. Kids do it every day, so if you leave that perception there and educate no different, why wouldn't it work? Ahhhhhh yes, because adults don't like it that way because they're entitled to more than their lesser counter part.

Dunno what you were raised to be, doesn't seem to be human though. Victorian man maybe, depends on what you identify with.

Well the dole isn't as much as paid work...

You replied to me and used your/you, who else would you be referring too?

GDP is related to money velocity, ie, how often a given dollar is spent. It ain't about printing more money, much less forging it.

Who is going to buy a million dollar hammer? If you devalue the currency so much that it is the accepted price of one, you also devalue the currency against our debt, so instead of owing say 10bil NZD to pay off 8bil USD debt, you then owe 10trillion NZD to pay off that same 8bil USD. Currency represents material worth, think of it more like we owe US 8billion hammers, it doesn't matter what you charge for them internally, they still want material goods to the worth of 8billion hammers.

Ahhh, I don't fit your ideal of human. Communism 101, those who disagree are not human; guess it makes them easier to oppress?

[mashman]

Well the dole isn't as much as paid work...

You replied to me and used your/you, who else would you be referring too?

GDP is related to money velocity, ie, how often a given dollar is spent. It ain't about printing more money, much less forging it.

Who is going to buy a million dollar hammer? If you devalue the currency so much that it is the accepted price of one, you also devalue the currency against our debt, so instead of owing say 10bil NZD to pay off 8bil USD debt, you then owe 10trillion NZD to pay off that same 8bil USD. Currency represents material worth, think of it more like we owe US 8billion hammers, it doesn't matter what you charge for them internally, they still want material goods to the worth of 8billion hammers.

Ahhh, I don't fit your ideal of human. Communism 101, those who disagree are not human; guess it makes them easier to oppress?

True... but it's money people need.

I see that, my apologies it should have been the collective you.

So? It's one facet. At the end of the day the country has a GDP, by all means calculate it every 5 or 10 or 15 transactions it'll matter not, it's still a published figure at the end of the day... all wrapped up into a nice little bundle.

If you virtualise the financial system it won't matter how much things cost, but instead of charging and paying people directly you charge Banco el NZo. One big pot of GDP comprising 1 big pot of income v's 1 big pot of expenditure. Value anything at any value that you like in accordance with the financial needs of the country as long as it meets the GDP target. Why would that devalue the currency? Surely the currency is devalued by printing lots of new money, we'll simply be putting every single cent of "money" in NZ to work at the price points we choose. Add more middlemen for all it'd matter. We would set what the worth is within the budget of expected GDP. If we're allowed we can pay off all of our debt. In theory we could borrow from every lender in the world to float the economies of the world, still be able to repay the debt and not have any adverse affects on the population. So what is currently hocked to the overseas lenders? What have we offered as security for their loans? Because those assets can remain worth exactly the same value as well as handling any rises due to inflation and the internal economy can readjust to meet the GDP target.

@ communism, it's playing capitalism against itself using the creative accounting of capitalism and all of its mechanisms, but we decide to value internally used items, sounds rude, at the prices we choose to balance our economy. You mentioned yourself that that 2.2trillion that the world was going to be producing only need to change the value of what is produced. Yes I paraphrased, yes I may have misunderstood you, but please explain away how using every $ that is currently at NZ's disposal is different to what you meant.

[bogan]

So? It's one facet. At the end of the day the country has a GDP, by all means calculate it every 5 or 10 or 15 transactions it'll matter not, it's still a published figure at the end of the day... all wrapped up into a nice little bundle.

If you virtualise the financial system it won't matter how much things cost, but instead of charging and paying people directly you charge Banco el NZo. One big pot of GDP comprising 1 big pot of income v's 1 big pot of expenditure. Value anything at any value that you like in accordance with the financial needs of the country as long as it meets the GDP target. Why would that devalue the currency? Surely the currency is devalued by printing lots of new money, we'll simply be putting every single cent of "money" in NZ to work at the price points we choose. Add more middlemen for all it'd matter. We would set what the worth is within the budget of expected GDP. If we're allowed we can pay off all of our debt. In theory we could borrow from every lender in the world to float the economies of the world, still be able to repay the debt and not have any adverse affects on the population. So what is currently hocked to the overseas lenders? What have we offered as security for their loans? Because those assets can remain worth exactly the same value as well as handling any rises due to inflation and the internal economy can readjust to meet the GDP target.

@ communism, it's playing capitalism against itself using the creative accounting of capitalism and all of its mechanisms, but we decide to value internally used items, sounds rude, at the prices we choose to balance our economy. You mentioned yourself that that 2.2trillion that the world was going to be producing only need to change the value of what is produced. Yes I paraphrased, yes I may have misunderstood you, but please explain away how using every $ that is currently at NZ's disposal is different to what you meant.

GDP is the aggregate of all transactions given per year; it isn't something you calculate every X transactions.

External debt is what we're talking about, and the value of our currency is set externally, we can't choose what our dollar is worth, we can manipulate things to change it, but not to the extend you're talking about. Likewise we can't borrow from other's to float the rest while repaying our own with no adverse affects; that theory just continues to show a profound lack of understanding into how currency is valued.

It's communism, you simply don't have the financial grasp to play capitalism against itself. I assume the 2.2 tril increase was GDP, basically you increase the value of goods consumed, be it more goods, or higher quality goods; ie, more disposable income. Like if I earned 60k instead of 50k, I could buy a 4k laptop instead of a 2k laptop every year, or two 2k laptops per year instead of one; either way, increases the GDP by 2k, and whoever I bought the laptop/s off would also have extra money spend, further increasing the GDP. It's the money goods transactions, not the total money in the pool.

[mashman]

GDP is the aggregate of all transactions given per year; it isn't something you calculate every X transactions.

External debt is what we're talking about, and the value of our currency is set externally, we can't choose what our dollar is worth, we can manipulate things to change it, but not to the extend you're talking about. Likewise we can't borrow from other's to float the rest while repaying our own with no adverse affects; that theory just continues to show a profound lack of understanding into how currency is valued.

It's communism, you simply don't have the financial grasp to play capitalism against itself. I assume the 2.2 tril increase was GDP, basically you increase the value of goods consumed, be it more goods, or higher quality goods; ie, more disposable income. Like if I earned 60k instead of 50k, I could buy a 4k laptop instead of a 2k laptop every year, or two 2k laptops per year instead of one; either way, increases the GDP by 2k, and whoever I bought the laptop/s off would also have extra money spend, further increasing the GDP. It's the money goods transactions, not the total money in the pool.

I didn't say it was something calculated every X transactions, but you were referring to the velocity of money and it's contribution to the GDP pot. Yes I call it a pot. Yes you can technically spin it any way you like, but the pot is filled and a figure is produced.

I'm not saying that we're changing the value of the $. So as beautiful as your speech was, it wasn't relevant. You must be forgetting the bit about the virtualised financial system and how the internal economy could be run. If you control the what and the how of the bulk of your GDP you can charge anything you like for anything to hit that magic number that leaves the value of the $ worth that which it is needed to be at.

I am saying we do absolutely fuck all to GDP. Keep on producing the same numbers time after time or produce the numbers as they required by any financial overlord. If we are required to raise GDP to show that our economy is doing better, irrespective of how it is doing, then changethe value of anything to achieve that end.

The disconnect here is that you're looking at this under the context of how the current system runs, I'm looking at it within a context of how it could be run. If you put every cent that exists in NZ to work, as I mentioned earlier, then it will be the entire pool that will be being used to increase/decrease/maintain GDP.

[bogan]

I didn't say it was something calculated every X transactions, but you were referring to the velocity of money and it's contribution to the GDP pot. Yes I call it a pot. Yes you can technically spin it any way you like, but the pot is filled and a figure is produced.

I'm not saying that we're changing the value of the $. So as beautiful as your speech was, it wasn't relevant. You must be forgetting the bit about the virtualised financial system and how the internal economy could be run. If you control the what and the how of the bulk of your GDP you can charge anything you like for anything to hit that magic number that leaves the value of the $ worth that which it is needed to be at.

I am saying we do absolutely fuck all to GDP. Keep on producing the same numbers time after time or produce the numbers as they required by any financial overlord. If we are required to raise GDP to show that our economy is doing better, irrespective of how it is doing, then changethe value of anything to achieve that end.

The disconnect here is that you're looking at this under the context of how the current system runs, I'm looking at it within a context of how it could be run. If you put every cent that exists in NZ to work, as I mentioned earlier, then it will be the entire pool that will be being used to increase/decrease/maintain GDP.

It is not a pot, as there is no one point in time when it is 'full'. In fact if you have a 7L pot, you could easily run 700L of GDP through it... But does calling it a pot now instead of money laundering mean you been at least partially educated on this issue?

You cannot write off external debt by virtualising the economy. You still owe other countries a lot of money (representative of goods), you can't just print money or whatever else it is you expect a virtual economy to do to write that off.

GDP is just one measure, it can be normalised by inflation etc, so there is no way you could lower production and just fudge the numbers to keep everyone else happy.

Try actually running the numbers yourself, and I'll point out the disconnect if you don't manage to spot it.

[mashman]

It is not a pot, as there is no one point in time when it is 'full'. In fact if you have a 7L pot, you could easily run 700L of GDP through it... But does calling it a pot now instead of money laundering mean you been at least partially educated on this issue?

You cannot write off external debt by virtualising the economy. You still owe other countries a lot of money (representative of goods), you can't just print money or whatever else it is you expect a virtual economy to do to write that off.

GDP is just one measure, it can be normalised by inflation etc, so there is no way you could lower production and just fudge the numbers to keep everyone else happy.

Try actually running the numbers yourself, and I'll point out the disconnect if you don't manage to spot it.

I never said the pot ever got full. I understand your distaste for me referring to the money creation process as money laundering, that's all.

I never said anything about writing that debt off, even though it would be a possibility to pay it off. Yes, representative of goods, yet paid for using money. Why are we not allowed to charge $1 million for a hammer? It's a good that we have decided costs $1 million.

Yes there is. You change the price of the good. You don't have to do that against inflation if you don't want to as not everything rises in line with inflation. Who's talking about lowering production? Even still, it would be possible if the value of goods is priced accordingly. Give it a shiny coat of red paint and decide that that's a criteria for a higher end good. You only need to change 1 measure. It need not be GDP, by all means make it GNP as it'll offer a wider spectrum for playing with. But pretty much any single measure can be used to play with the figures where you control what you charge each "unit" at in the local economy.

That's what computers are for and I'm sure they'll be able to revalue "units" that we set as variable based on the velocity of money in real time. If we are allowed to set our own "unit" prices, which we are, then I fail to see why we can't charge $1 million for a hammer and $1 for an hour of labor.

[bogan]

I never said the pot ever got full. I understand your distaste for me referring to the money creation process as money laundering, that's all.

I never said anything about writing that debt off, even though it would be a possibility to pay it off. Yes, representative of goods, yet paid for using money. Why are we not allowed to charge $1 million for a hammer? It's a good that we have decided costs $1 million.

Yes there is. You change the price of the good. You don't have to do that against inflation if you don't want to as not everything rises in line with inflation. Who's talking about lowering production? Even still, it would be possible if the value of goods is priced accordingly. Give it a shiny coat of red paint and decide that that's a criteria for a higher end good. You only need to change 1 measure. It need not be GDP, by all means make it GNP as it'll offer a wider spectrum for playing with. But pretty much any single measure can be used to play with the figures where you control what you charge each "unit" at in the local economy.

That's what computers are for and I'm sure they'll be able to revalue "units" that we set as variable based on the velocity of money in real time. If we are allowed to set our own "unit" prices, which we are, then I fail to see why we can't charge $1 million for a hammer and $1 for an hour of labor.

Money creation is managed independently from gdp increasing, how can you not get that yet?

You can pay off debt, but charging 1million bucks for a hammer devalues the currency so we owe a thousand timez more of our own dollars.

I don't mean exact numbers, just a generalised example. Unit prices of 1 per hour of labour and 1mil for a hammer would result in a huge benefit to those with an extra hammer, and pretty big problem for those who need one. Or if that is export prices, we'll be undercut by chinese hammers and sell none, while being tasked with a massive amount of labour export, forcing everyone to work their asses off just to keep up interest payment on our debt.

[Ocean1]

Huh? How is it fair to waste resources?

Where do you get wasting resources from?

Agreed. This is a laudible goal but within the meager budget they're allocated it's a pipe dream unless, as you say, more of the education responsibility is put back on the parents.

Every monopoly complains they're under-resourced, completely missing the point that they're not meeting their clients needs because they're not responsible to them.

And I never said more education responsibility should be put back on the parents. It should be put back onto the students.

Giving every kid in class gets equal attention regardless of need denies those at the bottom what they need to learn and waste it on those that don't need it. It's this kind of thinking that's created the elitist society that will eventually be the downfall of our civilisation.

Bullshit, why do the low achievers NEED more attention than the high achievers? The fact that high performers exceed the required standards with minimal attention doesn't mean they should be deprived of their share of resources.

And if you visited your library a bit more you might be more aware that our civilisation wasn't made by people who struggle to meet minimum standards, it was made and continues to be made by extreme high performers with little to no input from the vast majority who like to think they deserve the resulting lifestyle. Go look, you'll find very few historical references about Joe average and his amazing invention having made life so much better.

Challenge the high performers and then teach them they can meet that challenge, it'll benefit the low performers far more than any remedial efforts you think will make education "fairer". There'd be far less likelihood of civilisation falling to start with.