Govt 'covering up' school funding plan

[MSTRS:Me]

... we are charged with equipping them to be members of the society we live in....

BS. That's the parent's job. The state requires that all children between 5 - 16 be supplied an education (of the state's choosing). Delivering that is YOUR job.

[mansell]

BS. That's the parent's job. The state requires that all children between 5 - 16 be supplied an education (of the state's choosing). Delivering that is YOUR job.

Yeah and if the parents did their job I might have an easier time trying to do mine.

[mashman]

Try or not, if no attempt is made to improve one's situation, why should more resources be thrown at them? Laziness should not be rewarded.

As for teachers and their pay, my wife works in the high school system, which is a real eye-opener. She is paid the same as any other staff in her job for the same length of time, but she does many more jobs with much greater success and often is called on by these so-called peers to help them. To repeat...for the same pay. She is a more effective staff member so why isn't she paid more? Same as teachers.

Simple really...

Was I saying that more resources should be thrown at people not trying hard enough? The problem with that little ditty is that there is a judgement call in there that is being made in regards to the capabilities of an individual. If I think you aren't trying hard enough, then it doesn't matter what you think. How would you react to me stating that you're not trying hard enough?

I'm sure Ocean would say that she's obviously not worth more irrespective of what she thinks. Is being more versatile a criteria for being given more money than someone else? I'm sure the missus would be a great loss to her department, but she is replaceable, we all are and just because you are the best doesn't mean that you should be rewarded as such. Would she accept a pat on the back and the acknowledgement by her peers that she is a more effective member of the team as her as a reward? What happens if someone else steps up to the plate and becomes the star? Should she have any previous rewards removed and those rewards given to someone else? Would she have anything left with which to counter that and push to get her spot back the following year? Coz I see that sort of thing turning out ugly, it generally does.

I don't see it as simple at all. I am better therefore I should have. Sounds like my kids.

[swbarnett]

Yes, I understand what you said, equity of outcomes rather than equal shares of resources. By definition that's inequitable and unfair.

Huh? How is it fair to waste resources?

They should be tasked with maximising the performance of every child in their school,

Agreed. This is a laudible goal but within the meager budget they're allocated it's a pipe dream unless, as you say, more of the education responsibility is put back on the parents.

how can they do that by denying high performers the share of the resources their parents taxes paid for? If that's not the case then you've got an inherently unfair education system. One the performance of which will continue to decrease as a result of such silly notions.

Giving every kid in class gets equal attention regardless of need denies those at the bottom what they need to learn and waste it on those that don't need it. It's this kind of thinking that's created the elitist society that will eventually be the downfall of our civilisation.

[TheDemonLord]

Hypothetical questions:

Child A is developmentally delayed with a documented and supposedly "understood" chromosomal disorder and while verbal is VERY difficult to understand.

Child B is 2 chronological years younger than Child A but bigger and very easy to understand.

When Child B takes Child A's lunch box and empties the contents on his head and then grabs his ears and bashes his head against the wall and Child A retaliates, blacking the eye of his tormentor, which child does the average school principal support and who's parents are called to school?

When Child D, a peer and "friend" of Child C smashes Child C's face into a rock garden "for fun" while Child C was reading a book on the step outside his classroom, destroying both newly acquired adult front upper teeth in the process and generating a bill of $3600 and ongoing psych issues (night terrors, etc, etc) because it was a total surprise king hit, which parents are called in to explain themselves and which child is deemed socially awkward and therefore deserving of having their face smashed in from behind?

Child E has a condition that is poorly understood, but when it comes upon him means he can't walk and talk. The school supports him by isolating him from his peers (without the knowledge of his parents) and the head of the Junior School has been caught on more than one occasion screaming at him to, "Get up, you're faking it!", by the parents, who has to go to a BoT meeting and be told to not lodge a complaint about the treatment of Child E or face having to find another school?

More than one family have this going on. When Child F is tormented physically by a pack of kids who leave him naked in the playing field while standing in a ring around him chanting "piggy, piggy", who's parents are called into school and told, "Well you have to understand that he is overweight".

When Child C is physically and verbally abused by a teacher who threatens to call the Police on him if he comes any closer, when all he is doing is picking up Child A, AFTER school and making sure his bags are packed and sandals on the right feet and the subsequent screaming fit (there were witnesses - busy time with kids being picked up) leaves Child C unable to go to school for a couple of days and when he does go back endures a systematic application of areas where he is allowed to go in the school and is banned from Child A's school block, despite later being exonerated after the parents hire a child psychologist to monitor the situation who recommends that the teacher be removed from the profession and ensures this is carried out, who footed the bill? Was there an apology?

There never is. Teachers are always right.

It's about time you folk manned up and provided the positive role models you all so desperately think you are. I have no sympathy for the plight of teachers because I've yet to find one who is actively engaged in teaching kids from a positive viewpoint and capable of treating their parents like adults, not big kids who need to be lectured about how shitty their kids are (watch the retort that all the shit above was deserved). When no one says anything nice about you or your kids it's hardly surprising that you develop chips in places that there shouldn't be chips.

This.


1000 times This.

I am guessing that these hypotheticals are based on real worls examples.

Same with the Viral video from Aus where the bigger kid body slammed the fuck knuckle who was picking on him - who got suspended for longer by the School?

I used to get it all the time when I was picked on - 3 versus one, I tried to trip one of them up to even the odds - who gets called up and punished for fighting?

[mashman]

None of you will like this, but it has to be said, I could abuse you in regards to having a thick skull etc... but fuck it, it gets boring sometimes.

Do you really want an education system that offers not only the teachers but the parents real options in regards to the education of our kids? To put it bluntly and without going into too much detail, you need to remove money from the equation. It is a limiting factor (budget constraint leading to limited teacher v's student ratio "problems"/styles/knowledge etc... providing teaching models for furthering the education of those who are learning and those who aren't, can't, won't etc...) FACT! It is a bone of contention (I deserve more than you. Schools fees cost too much. "Better" teaching by paying more) FACT! They are 2 of, what I have read in all of your comments, 2 of the main factors that repeat.

Like I said, there's no point in being "abusive" about it, yes it annoys me that people can't wrap their heads around that simple truth, but until you do, we'll go round and round and round and round slinging shit, blaming teachers, parents, students etc... and for no other reason than we can't afford to reshape what we know needs to be brought into the 21st century. Do what you can with what you have is an unbelievably inflexible and negative way to approach what we know needs to be done in regards to one of the most important institutions on the planet.

Now fuck off and think about it you knuckle headed fucktards.

[bogan]

Giving every kid in class gets equal attention regardless of need denies those at the bottom what they need to learn and waste it on those that don't need it. It's this kind of thinking that's created the elitist society that will eventually be the downfall of our civilisation.

Equal opportunity for attention is all that is needed. Certainly there is no point for teachers hovering over those who will happily work away by themselves; but those must be given the opportunity (and be forcefully motivated if required) to keep working, regardless of whether they have ticked a govt sanctioned 'your kid is now adequate' box. Indeed, when considering the smart ones need less contact time, in an equal system, teachers can prioritise those kids, like you do the easy jobs on a to-do list, get the clever ones going on their stuff for that section of the day; then focus on the ones who need additional contact time. Many teachers do this already of course, and it is good that they have the freedom from standardised lower common denominator testing/teaching bullshit; or at least they did in my day.

[TheDemonLord]

None of you will like this, but it has to be said, I could abuse you in regards to having a thick skull etc... but fuck it, it gets boring sometimes.

Do you really want an education system that offers not only the teachers but the parents real options in regards to the education of our kids? To put it bluntly and without going into too much detail, you need to remove money from the equation. It is a limiting factor (budget constraint leading to limited teacher v's student ratio "problems"/styles/knowledge etc... providing teaching models for furthering the education of those who are learning and those who aren't, can't, won't etc...) FACT! It is a bone of contention (I deserve more than you. Schools fees cost too much. "Better" teaching by paying more) FACT! They are 2 of, what I have read in all of your comments, 2 of the main factors that repeat.

Like I said, there's no point in being "abusive" about it, yes it annoys me that people can't wrap their heads around that simple truth, but until you do, we'll go round and round and round and round slinging shit, blaming teachers, parents, students etc... and for no other reason than we can't afford to reshape what we know needs to be brought into the 21st century. Do what you can with what you have is an unbelievably inflexible and negative way to approach what we know needs to be done in regards to one of the most important institutions on the planet.

Now fuck off and think about it you knuckle headed fucktards.

You are only thinking that way because you have been trained to think that way.....

[mashman]

You are only thinking that way because you have been trained to think that way.....

Dammit... and I thought it was self-evident.

[swbarnett]

Equal opportunity for attention is all that is needed. Certainly there is no point for teachers hovering over those who will happily work away by themselves; but those must be given the opportunity (and be forcefully motivated if required) to keep working, regardless of whether they have ticked a govt sanctioned 'your kid is now adequate' box. Indeed, when considering the smart ones need less contact time, in an equal system, teachers can prioritise those kids, like you do the easy jobs on a to-do list, get the clever ones going on their stuff for that section of the day; then focus on the ones who need additional contact time. Many teachers do this already of course, and it is good that they have the freedom from standardised lower common denominator testing/teaching bullshit; or at least they did in my day.

I have absolutely no problem with any of what you have said. It describes what I've been talking about with equitly of resource in more practical terms.

[James Deuce]

Hypothetical response - you have mentioned 5 children with very complex disorders that were in this instance treated wrongly IMHO but expect teachers to understand these completely, when most other members of society wouldn't and would probably respond similarly. Some of the students you mentioned need special help which is slowly being removed from school because of the costs involved yet it is easier to blame us than the government.
We are not super human, but most of the people I haved worked with over the years are "actively engaged in teaching kids from a positive viewpoint". If not they tend to last only a short time in teaching.

Only 2 of them have "issues". You read that wrong. Child C who has been treated and recovered from being physically attacked by peers for being "different" is now at High School and I can't say enough positive things about how brilliant his new school is up to and including the point where they have gone and complained to the previous school about misrepresenting his capabilities, both academically and socially. Things that his parents said through 7 years of two primary schools.

You've also taken the usual teacher defence post-savage and unacceptable attacks - not our fault they're difficult to manage, serves them right for being differrent, we don't have funds. You don't need funds to be a decent human. Child A has a fully-funded teacher aide who simply doesn't do her fundamental job of maintaining Child A's dignity and safety thereby maximising his educational opportunities. She's not qualified and the school is not making any moves to help with her training. She harbours fundamental misconceptions about Child A's condition, along with the bulk of the faculty and they simply cannot be educated, as parents have nothing to teach teachers.

Child E is being treated better now he has a teacher with MS. She gets "it". She defends his right to be himnself with as much vigour as she can muster.

See I'm almost learning to respect some teachers. But the vast majority I've dealt with are completely happy for "different" children to have the shit kicked out of them to "bring them into line". They also regard parents as stupid pests who deserve to be spoken down to and disregarded in all matters relating to education. I may have said that before.

[MSTRS:Me]

Like I said, there's no point in being "abusive" about it,
...
Now fuck off and think about it you knuckle headed fucktards.

So which is it?

Obviously you're a teacher of some sort, and feeling personally attacked. Undeservedly, perhaps - or not - but teachers have varying degrees of abilities, just like students.

Those students who coast through school and leave with little/nothing in the way of achievement, perhaps will learn as they get older that they screwed themselves? Or did they?

I know of many who had a teacher who didn't give a shit, which simply cemented the problem of under-achieving.

The kids have to be there by law. Their 'reward' for achievement comes after they leave school.

Meanwhile, the dipshit teacher/s that failed them continue/s with a new batch of students and is paid the same as their more able colleagues.

Which sort are you?

[bogan]

So which is it?

Obviously you're a teacher of some sort, and feeling personally attacked. Undeservedly, perhaps - or not - but teachers have varying degrees of abilities, just like students.

Those students who coast through school and leave with little/nothing in the way of achievement, perhaps will learn as they get older that they screwed themselves? Or did they?

I know of many who had a teacher who didn't give a shit, which simply cemented the problem of under-achieving.

The kids have to be there by law. Their 'reward' for achievement comes after they leave school.

Meanwhile, the dipshit teacher/s that failed them continue/s with a new batch of students and is paid the same as their more able colleagues.

Which sort are you?

FYI, he's a troll out to turn every thread into a 'debate' about how money is real bad and shit yo. We thank the lord each day for the fact that he is not a teacher

[mashman]

So which is it?

Obviously you're a teacher of some sort, and feeling personally attacked. Undeservedly, perhaps - or not - but teachers have varying degrees of abilities, just like students.

Those students who coast through school and leave with little/nothing in the way of achievement, perhaps will learn as they get older that they screwed themselves? Or did they?

I know of many who had a teacher who didn't give a shit, which simply cemented the problem of under-achieving.

The kids have to be there by law. Their 'reward' for achievement comes after they leave school.

Meanwhile, the dipshit teacher/s that failed them continue/s with a new batch of students and is paid the same as their more able colleagues.

Which sort are you?

one's the truth and one's a KB gift.

IT's (pun intended) obvious that I'm a teacher? Odd, I thought I was an analyst/programmer. But if it makes you feel any better, I'm more than happy for others to make my mind up for me, well, it certainly doesn't seem to stop the misconceptions (Yes Boris, I fall into that trap too). I'm not a teacher, I don't, well, didn't have the temperament for it.

I agree that students and teachers have different strengths and weaknesses and that it could be construed, and it has been, that both teacher and student are being held responsible for fucking each other up along the way in many ways. That highlights a flaw in the education system, not the students or the teachers. I don't doubt that there are a mix of both and I only wish it were easier to reassign both, but in a positive way, not a you're a cunt you failure and be tainted with that because they weren't ready. It's a rick and a hard place for both and even at that, great teachers/students can become substandard teachers/students as life kicks them around... yet we're not interested in that for some unknown reason. They should both do their job to the maximum potential according to the rabble where that isn't the way human beings are.

We don't screw ourselves because we coast and lose nothing, we continue to coast and in some cases become "successful" by coasting. That's a personal opinion from personal experience, along with observations of friends that have done the same. You go ahead and be as successful as you want, but declaring that the coasters or the lower half of the intelligence scale deserve less than you makes you nothing more than another man with an entitlement complex based on some form of superiority index that underpins your reality ommmmmmmmm. In simpler terms, you have decided that you are better than someone else and deserve to be recognised for your efforts by receiving more of something, most likely money.

Ironically there are people who class themselves as being better than you and therefore are more entitled to your share of the pot than you are. Using your model, you should STFU and get on with it. Change the way we do things or run around in circles forever, your choice.

[mashman]

FYI, he's a troll out to turn every thread into a 'debate' about how money is real bad and shit yo. We thank the lord each day for the fact that he is not a teacher

I am though... just not in the way you understand it