Govt 'covering up' school funding plan

[mashman]

Except we have tried other systems - barter, Mana etc. none have been as successful as Money

When was the last time we tried something without a financial system? It has served its purpose, time to move over for something new and improved.

Thus proving my point, in a RBE, luxury goods will be diminished or banned and that consumer choice as a result is diminished.

Maybe luxury good will be shared.

If the current method for Ferrari allocation is via having sufficient money to afford one - How can this continue to be method of allocation after you remove money?

I told you, blow your dealer.

Actually its easier for one organisation to supress all information and to muddy the waters in order to supress/decieve - If company X tells you it takes 4 weeks to do something and Company X is the only company that does this specific thing - you have no way to know whether they are being genuine or lazy. However if we introduce Company Y who will either confirm with Company X, or Undercut company X, or form a Cartel with Company X

Only if the information/accounts aren't open for all to see.

You should - it details how idealism gets corrupted into totalitarianism and suppression.

All animals are Equal, but some are more Equal than others.

You think that's news to me?

We're all unequal, again, not news.

I don't think so - Crime rates will continue as they have always done - in fact in some areas crime will increase - afterall if there is no Financial penalty not to do something - where is the incentive to not do it?

Overnight the highways would become racetracks (no speeding fines because there is no Money!)

Some crimes may rise. Some crimes will no longer be crimes. Theft for financial gain will decline dramatically. Other crimes may well drop entirely.

I have no problem over the roads becoming racetracks. If you fuck up and kill yourself, meh. If you fuck up, live and kill others, then you can enjoy a long stretch banged up inside.

[SPman]

Back to schools...

In 2008 New Zealand was internationally ranked in the top seven for educational achievement, and when you compared us with other countries that were also culturally diverse and were experiencing growing inequality we were extremely successful.

From 2008

• $35 million gifted to private schools (4% of students). Elite private school Wanganui Collegiate (400 students) receives $3.9 million bail out despite Ministry advice not to.
  
• $25 million slashed from the Education Ministry (according to assessments it is the worst performing ministry).
• Introduction of new curriculum abandoned and National Standards implemented without trial, against advice and with limited consultation (legislated into law).
• Cost of repairing leaky school buildings over $1.2 billion (after National’s de-regulation of building industry in 1991).
• $400 million wiped from the early childhood budget and the target for qualified teachers dropped to 80% (many centres operating at 100% had massive budget cuts).
• Curriculum narrowed to literacy and numeracy and all other advisors sacked(Science, Technology, Arts…).
• The expectation that schools provide healthy food wiped to allow commercial interests into schools again to sell processed food and fruit in schools scheme slashed.
• Funding for technology teachers in intermediates cut.
• Class sizes over 1:27, 6 more than the OECD average
• Health camps closed.
• Pasifika immersion and bilingual community child care centres suffer funding cuts despite being a ‘priority’ group.
• Residential schools for behavioural needs closed (one illegally).
• Schools who questioned Standards were threatened with having boards and principals sacked and had PD withheld.
• Christchurch school closures are poorly managed and questioned by an ombudsmen and found wanting by a court decision.
• New Education Ministry head employed from UK with a background in Charter Schools and limited knowledge of New Zealand system.
• Novopay signed off and implemented without a proper trial despite having 147 software faults. Schools are having to devote hours of time every week to deal with past and ongoing problems.
• Charter Schools introduced despite no evidence of need and are given afinancial advantage over public schools. The Civilian’s satirical take on Charter Schools is actually not far from the truth.
• Private schools capture special needs funding over low decile schools.
• Te Kotahitanga dumped despite being highly successful in lifting Maori achievement.
• Disbandment of the Supplementary Learning Support tier of special education funding, putting an increased load on our already overworked Resource Teachers for Learning and behaviour (RTLB).
• Hekia Parata remains in ministerial role despite poor performance and little respect from the public or the education sector.
• After five years under National, New Zealand’s international ranking plummets to as low as 23rd.
• Internationally regarded research reveals New Zealand schools are suffering serious harm under the National Standards regime.
• Government pays $2.5 million in grants and subsidies to Kidicorp a corporate child care provider with a history of overcharging the Ministry ($1.6 million) by manipulating teacher numbers.
• The Prime Minister announces that $359 million will be spent on Executive Principals and Teachers who are successful in raising achievement in National Standards. Many question why the money is supporting a corporate management system and isn’t being spent directly to help children with high needs.

At the moment

- They are planning to do away with the current Teachers Council and replace it with a new authority (EDUCANZ) that will be led by those approved and appointed by the Minister only, with little professional input.
- The Education Amendment Bill (No2) is currently being progressed through parliament that will support the ongoing restructuring of the system.
- Hekia Parata is also considering wiping the current support for lower decile schools and shift extra funding to those schools that perform well in National Standards.
- The head of the EDUCANZ transition board John Morris has recently produced a paper that suggests teachers should be paid based on the attainment of their students.

Looks like they are doing a good job of reshaping schools into an ideological corporate image to me - schools for profit and fuck education - so neo con........(not) know the cost of everything and the value of nothing!

[mansell]

Back to schools...

In 2008 New Zealand was internationally ranked in the top seven for educational achievement, and when you compared us with other countries that were also culturally diverse and were experiencing growing inequality we were extremely successful.

From 2008

• $35 million gifted to private schools (4% of students). Elite private school Wanganui Collegiate (400 students) receives $3.9 million bail out despite Ministry advice not to.
  
• $25 million slashed from the Education Ministry (according to assessments it is the worst performing ministry).
• Introduction of new curriculum abandoned and National Standards implemented without trial, against advice and with limited consultation (legislated into law).
• Cost of repairing leaky school buildings over $1.2 billion (after National’s de-regulation of building industry in 1991).
• $400 million wiped from the early childhood budget and the target for qualified teachers dropped to 80% (many centres operating at 100% had massive budget cuts).
• Curriculum narrowed to literacy and numeracy and all other advisors sacked(Science, Technology, Arts…).
• The expectation that schools provide healthy food wiped to allow commercial interests into schools again to sell processed food and fruit in schools scheme slashed.
• Funding for technology teachers in intermediates cut.
• Class sizes over 1:27, 6 more than the OECD average
• Health camps closed.
• Pasifika immersion and bilingual community child care centres suffer funding cuts despite being a ‘priority’ group.
• Residential schools for behavioural needs closed (one illegally).
• Schools who questioned Standards were threatened with having boards and principals sacked and had PD withheld.
• Christchurch school closures are poorly managed and questioned by an ombudsmen and found wanting by a court decision.
• New Education Ministry head employed from UK with a background in Charter Schools and limited knowledge of New Zealand system.
• Novopay signed off and implemented without a proper trial despite having 147 software faults. Schools are having to devote hours of time every week to deal with past and ongoing problems.
• Charter Schools introduced despite no evidence of need and are given afinancial advantage over public schools. The Civilian’s satirical take on Charter Schools is actually not far from the truth.
• Private schools capture special needs funding over low decile schools.
• Te Kotahitanga dumped despite being highly successful in lifting Maori achievement.
• Disbandment of the Supplementary Learning Support tier of special education funding, putting an increased load on our already overworked Resource Teachers for Learning and behaviour (RTLB).
• Hekia Parata remains in ministerial role despite poor performance and little respect from the public or the education sector.
• After five years under National, New Zealand’s international ranking plummets to as low as 23rd.
• Internationally regarded research reveals New Zealand schools are suffering serious harm under the National Standards regime.
• Government pays $2.5 million in grants and subsidies to Kidicorp a corporate child care provider with a history of overcharging the Ministry ($1.6 million) by manipulating teacher numbers.
• The Prime Minister announces that $359 million will be spent on Executive Principals and Teachers who are successful in raising achievement in National Standards. Many question why the money is supporting a corporate management system and isn’t being spent directly to help children with high needs.

At the moment

- They are planning to do away with the current Teachers Council and replace it with a new authority (EDUCANZ) that will be led by those approved and appointed by the Minister only, with little professional input.
- The Education Amendment Bill (No2) is currently being progressed through parliament that will support the ongoing restructuring of the system.
- Hekia Parata is also considering wiping the current support for lower decile schools and shift extra funding to those schools that perform well in National Standards.
- The head of the EDUCANZ transition board John Morris has recently produced a paper that suggests teachers should be paid based on the attainment of their students.

Looks like they are doing a good job of reshaping schools into an ideological corporate image to me - schools for profit and fuck education - so neo con........(not) know the cost of everything and the value of nothing!

Thank you - all you who have been bagging the system need to read this. Solution get rid of people who look on education as a business and replace them with those who consider education a right.

[Ocean1]

Thank you - all you who have been bagging the system need to read this. Solution get rid of people who look on education as a business and replace them with those who consider education a right.

Meh.

From the horse's mouth:



http://www.treasury.govt.nz/governme...on/2009/16.htm

Looks to me like we're spending more on education than ever.

Want to see if you can find evidence we're getting better results?

Or are you happy to let someone else have your opinion?

[mansell]

Meh.

From the horse's mouth:



http://www.treasury.govt.nz/governme...on/2009/16.htm

Looks to me like we're spending more on education than ever.

Want to see if you can find evidence we're getting better results?

Or are you happy to let someone else have your opinion?

That's interesting - I have run a core department in two high schools now and my budgets (the money we get to spend on teaching) has remained static for at least the last 4 years, so my question is where has all the extra spending gone? Not into the class room. This is not even taking into account rising prices - there is some fantastic stuff out there that would help with teaching and learning but most of it is expensive and I have to be very choosy about what I purchase. It would be nice to see some of the extra spending go into schools' operational budgets, ask any principal and they will tell you about their budgetting problems.

[Banditbandit]

Too cryptic for me.

Oh .. did we do a bad job educating you ???

Not cryptic at all ... I'm a teacher and I disagree with you.

U need some time to properly articulate my reasons for disagreeing with you

But again, I am off to a teacher's meeting today. SO sorry - you might have to wait until Monday - and by then we both might have forgotten ..

[mashman]

Oh .. did we do a bad job educating you ???

No, I was more than capable doing that myself by ignoring what your brethren were offering in the way of knowledge.

Not cryptic at all ... I'm a teacher and I disagree with you.

U need some time to properly articulate my reasons for disagreeing with you

But again, I am off to a teacher's meeting today. SO sorry - you might have to wait until Monday - and by then we both might have forgotten ..

Was just checking.

[TheDemonLord]

When was the last time we tried something without a financial system? It has served its purpose, time to move over for something new and improved.

About 200 years ago in NZ, before the white man came.... and other Tribal cultures that still don't use Money - they still have the same problems that Money based economies do - just on a smaller scale (because they have less people)

Maybe luxury good will be shared.

Whilst some goods in theory can be shared - not all can, for those that cannot - what do you propose?

I told you, blow your dealer.

Now you are just not trying - the Dealer doesn't have any money either - the only people that have money is Elo Banko NZo - so again I pose the question - how does the allocation of luxury goods in a RBE work? who decides and how do they decide and most importantly - How do they decide in a way that doesn't screw someone else over?

Only if the information/accounts aren't open for all to see.

Like the government is open for all to see? or Any of the other monopoly organisation in history?

You think that's news to me?

We're all unequal, again, not news.

If we aren't equal then - why do you think we should get Equal resources?

Some crimes may rise. Some crimes will no longer be crimes. Theft for financial gain will decline dramatically. Other crimes may well drop entirely.

I have no problem over the roads becoming racetracks. If you fuck up and kill yourself, meh. If you fuck up, live and kill others, then you can enjoy a long stretch banged up inside.

Theft will continue as it is, actually it will probably rise - since victims are less likely to invest in security systems (no point) and will be able to replenish their lost goods quickly - people will steal.

[mashman]

About 200 years ago in NZ, before the white man came.... and other Tribal cultures that still don't use Money - they still have the same problems that Money based economies do - just on a smaller scale (because they have less people)

A hell of a lot has happened since then. Not least of which is communication. The white man is changing. You might not have noticed?

Whilst some goods in theory can be shared - not all can, for those that cannot - what do you propose?

What cannot be shared?

Now you are just not trying - the Dealer doesn't have any money either - the only people that have money is Elo Banko NZo - so again I pose the question - how does the allocation of luxury goods in a RBE work? who decides and how do they decide and most importantly - How do they decide in a way that doesn't screw someone else over?

It seems no matter how explain this to you you refuse to accept it. If the dealer doesn't like you, the dealer doesn't have to deal with you. Blowing him is merely a backup plan.

Like the government is open for all to see? or Any of the other monopoly organisation in history?

Strip back all system security and make every single transaction available for everybody to see i.e. TheDemonLord "bought" a Ferrari. mashman "bought" nothing more than the necessities, and a butt plug. EVERYTHING... and that includes trade agreements and ALL documentation.

If we aren't equal then - why do you think we should get Equal resources?

Did I say we should all get equal resources? Some us of won't need the resources that you need, so why would we be bothered with stuff that we don't need if it could be used by someone else?

Theft will continue as it is, actually it will probably rise - since victims are less likely to invest in security systems (no point) and will be able to replenish their lost goods quickly - people will steal.

So people are born to thieve? I have a stronger belief in humanity than that. That and according to the vital statistics department of bad goings on, the crime rate is falling. Even though more people are struggling and using food banks. Ooooo, could it be that instead of thieving stuff to buy food they can go and get free food and not need to thieve? The mind positively boggles at the possibility eh.

[TheDemonLord]

A hell of a lot has happened since then. Not least of which is communication. The white man is changing. You might not have noticed?

Communication doesn't solve the underlying problem - people are still just as Cunty now as they were before money was invented.

What cannot be shared?

Use once luxury items - a good example is an Eyefillet steak - when a Cow is Slaughtered, there is less Eye Fillet, than there is say Rump - currently the system is to charge more for the fillet than the Rump, but as a Luxury item, a Steak cannot be shared - once I have eaten it (and I eat all the Steak), it is gone (Om Nom Nom Steak)

It seems no matter how explain this to you you refuse to accept it. If the dealer doesn't like you, the dealer doesn't have to deal with you. Blowing him is merely a backup plan.

Because there is no adequate answer that you have provided - Without a method to assign a higher value to items and a method to assign higher values to services, there can be no luxury items as there is no method to distribute them.

Strip back all system security and make every single transaction available for everybody to see i.e. TheDemonLord "bought" a Ferrari. mashman "bought" nothing more than the necessities, and a butt plug. EVERYTHING... and that includes trade agreements and ALL documentation.

So, now no one has any Privacy - So not only are we living with only the bare necessities (unless you can provide an answer to the above regarding luxuries), but all rights to privacy a La 1984 have been squashed - Sounding more and more like Utopia every minute....

Did I say we should all get equal resources? Some us of won't need the resources that you need, so why would we be bothered with stuff that we don't need if it could be used by someone else?

Then answer what method you use to assign more resources to one person than another that doesn't result in the same inequities the current system has.

So people are born to thieve? I have a stronger belief in humanity than that. That and according to the vital statistics department of bad goings on, the crime rate is falling. Even though more people are struggling and using food banks. Ooooo, could it be that instead of thieving stuff to buy food they can go and get free food and not need to thieve? The mind positively boggles at the possibility eh.

I didn't say people are born thieves, but there are people who steal for reasons other than financial gain - even those that do steal for financial gain

Thats nice you believe in humanity - I don't.

[bogan]

Communication doesn't solve the underlying problem - people are still just as Cunty now as they were before money was invented.

One could say it is in fact exacerbated, as they can now communicate with each other and come up with diabolical plans for the cuntocalypse.

[TheDemonLord]

One could say it is in fact exacerbated, as they can now communicate with each other and come up with diabolical plans for the cuntocalypse.

Cuntocalypse - I love it

[mashman]

Communication doesn't solve the underlying problem - people are still just as Cunty now as they were before money was invented.

You're right, ignoring the issue and sweeping under the carpet whilst money saves the day solves the underlying problem. How many thousand years is that NOW? and counting........

Use once luxury items - a good example is an Eyefillet steak - when a Cow is Slaughtered, there is less Eye Fillet, than there is say Rump - currently the system is to charge more for the fillet than the Rump, but as a Luxury item, a Steak cannot be shared - once I have eaten it (and I eat all the Steak), it is gone (Om Nom Nom Steak)

Pulease... the entire cow is eaten, and then there's another one, and another, in fact I believe cows slightly outnumber people in NZ. But I guess you're just a cunt. I bet you call yourself a proud NZer too

Because there is no adequate answer that you have provided - Without a method to assign a higher value to items and a method to assign higher values to services, there can be no luxury items as there is no method to distribute them.

You've had your answer and it is very much a method for the distribution of goodds and services of any "value". So, yes there can be "luxury" items, you'll just never get one coz you're a cunt. I have no problem with that. Who knows, maybe I'll feel sorry for you and share what I have.

So, now no one has any Privacy - So not only are we living with only the bare necessities (unless you can provide an answer to the above regarding luxuries), but all rights to privacy a La 1984 have been squashed - Sounding more and more like Utopia every minute....

What privacy do you think you are going to lose? You do know that you can buy a service online to protect your internet privacy? Where does it end? Armed guards at the gates?

Then answer what method you use to assign more resources to one person than another that doesn't result in the same inequities the current system has.

As long as the resources are available and you're not going to waste them, have them.

I didn't say people are born thieves, but there are people who steal for reasons other than financial gain - even those that do steal for financial gain

Thats nice you believe in humanity - I don't.

There are other reasons people steal stuff. They want it usually being at the top of that list. But not everyone, not by a long chalk, steals because they want something. I'm assuming they implement something called temperance.

I'm sorry to hear that you're so scared of us.

[TheDemonLord]

You're right, ignoring the issue and sweeping under the carpet whilst money saves the day solves the underlying problem. How many thousand years is that NOW? and counting........

the difference is that I am not claiming that money is a solution to the problem, I concede it does nothing to solve the problem - you are claiming NOW as a solution to the problem without an explanation of how it solves the underlying problem, other than your belief in humanities inate goodness.

Pulease... the entire cow is eaten, and then there's another one, and another, in fact I believe cows slightly outnumber people in NZ. But I guess you're just a cunt. I bet you call yourself a proud NZer too

Again you dodge the luxury question - There is a difference both in taste, texture and prestige between an Eye Fillet and say toungue or liver - who determines who gets what and how is it determined?

Either it is done arbitrarily or it is done based on the value of ones output in society - if this the method selected, how is it different from using money?

You've had your answer and it is very much a method for the distribution of goodds and services of any "value". So, yes there can be "luxury" items, you'll just never get one coz you're a cunt. I have no problem with that. Who knows, maybe I'll feel sorry for you and share what I have.

I haven't had a difinitive answer as to how this works, I have had smoke, I have had mirrors but not an actual explanation of how you intend to assign these luxury items.

What privacy do you think you are going to lose? You do know that you can buy a service online to protect your internet privacy? Where does it end? Armed guards at the gates?

What privacy am I going to loose by having my entire Financial transactions publicly availible and freely accessible for the entire country.... Hmmmmm

Tell you what - why don't you start? Post up your entire financial history to KB (so bank statements, loan agreements etc.)

Somehow, I don't think you will be too keen to do that.

As long as the resources are available and you're not going to waste them, have them.

How do you determine what a Waste is? to many having a 5.7ltr V8 instead of an 800cc car is a waste, to some having more than 3 pairs of shoes is a waste, to some going overseas is a waste, to others upgrading technology is a waste. Who decides what is and what isn't a waste, how do they decide it?

There are other reasons people steal stuff. They want it usually being at the top of that list. But not everyone, not by a long chalk, steals because they want something. I'm assuming they implement something called temperance.

I'm sorry to hear that you're so scared of us.

Not scarred - I just have no faith in Humanity as a whole based on the actions I have observed Humanity take.

[mashman]

the difference is that I am not claiming that money is a solution to the problem, I concede it does nothing to solve the problem - you are claiming NOW as a solution to the problem without an explanation of how it solves the underlying problem, other than your belief in humanities inate goodness.

The entire financial system relies on the confidence of human beings. It can be abused much more easily than a system that does not require money to function, so NOW will work becauseof humanities inate goodness.

Again you dodge the luxury question - There is a difference both in taste, texture and prestige between an Eye Fillet and say toungue or liver - who determines who gets what and how is it determined?

Either it is done arbitrarily or it is done based on the value of ones output in society - if this the method selected, how is it different from using money?

I haven't had a difinitive answer as to how this works, I have had smoke, I have had mirrors but not an actual explanation of how you intend to assign these luxury items.

It wasn't dodged, you just didn't like the answer. Not everyone eats steak. Not everyone who can afford the finest of cuts is connoisseur enough to care which part of the cow they eat and would see those finest cuts as a waste, both in terms taste and in terms of value. Some people prefer rump. Some people simply don't care. You've had the question answered, you aren't going to get the fillet of answers you adore.

Arbitrarily, with a little value thrown in depending on whether the person who has produced the goods likes the cut of your jib.

What privacy am I going to loose by having my entire Financial transactions publicly availible and freely accessible for the entire country.... Hmmmmm

Tell you what - why don't you start? Post up your entire financial history to KB (so bank statements, loan agreements etc.)

Somehow, I don't think you will be too keen to do that.

No, what privacy are you going to lose under NOW. You wanted accountability yet aren't prepared to be held accountable yourself?

I'll be more than happy too from day 1 of NOW being implemented. I will not only hold myself accountible, I will prove it for anyone to see. That way they can judge whether I'm financially taking the piss or not for themselves and deal with me on that basis should they wish.

How do you determine what a Waste is? to many having a 5.7ltr V8 instead of an 800cc car is a waste, to some having more than 3 pairs of shoes is a waste, to some going overseas is a waste, to others upgrading technology is a waste. Who decides what is and what isn't a waste, how do they decide it?

How useful and abundant the resource is. That will probably be decided at community and country level. Your V8 will be offset by my little Nissan (sounds like you're compensating for something there) that I will hardly ever use as I will be working from home under NOW, as will a great many people.

Not scarred - I just have no faith in Humanity as a whole based on the actions I have observed Humanity take.

Scarred? Freudian slip? I have been in a similar position to yourself. They show no signs of wanting to change, yet when there are changes made they do change. Changing our environment and landing as much responsibility on the individual as possible as well as meeting all of a persons needs for free will likely bring out the good side and limit the "bad" behaviour. I see no reason not to think so... and I have come to that conclusions not only by direct observation but also using direct contact and asking the questions.

Human beings have earned and restored my faith.