Does onboard fuel injection fight a PowerCommander?

[p.dath]

I was thinking. Your onboard fuel injection system will have an O2 sensor. When running in closed loop mode the ECU will be trying to maintain a particular AFR.

So lets say you now plug in a Power Commander, and you want to modify the fuel map in the close loop range of RPM/TPS positions.

Wont this be a bit of a battle? The Power Commander will statically add/remove fuel, but the onboard ECU will notice the AFR has changed via it's O2 sensor, and just change it back again?


Now lets say you pay for the Power Commander wideband O2 sensor, and program with Power Commander with specific AFR ratios.

When in closed loop mode wont this cause a bitter fight between the factory ECU with its narrowband sensor trying to get one AFR and the Power Commander with it's wideband O2 sensor trying to get another AFR? I can see both units trying to modify the fuel loading until one hits it's maximum variation allowed.

[imdying]

They don't use a closed loop when you're over xx% of throttle. Plenty of o2 disconnect kits about too.

[SPP]

PCV? comes with an O2 eliminator, Cyclespot have them for about $40 as well.

[p.dath]

PCV? comes with an O2 eliminator, Cyclespot have them for about $40 as well.

I had a quick read about this a couple of days ago. It said the wideband sensor comes with an additional narrowband output. So the wideband output goes to the PCV, and the narrowband output goes connects where the existing narrowband sensor connected.

So is the narrowband output of the wideband sensor just a fake to stop the onboard engine management from kicking in?

[The Reibz]

I see someone has been reading the book I lent them.

When you buy a PCV you will get the eliminator inside the box. Pretty much all it does is send a constant voltage (0 - 5v) back to the ECU to tell it everything is all fine.
There is a small pin in the power commander that will accept the 0 - 5v imput from ANY wideband reciever. Personally I would get a AEM or a Inovate kit, unless you want autotune, then buy it from dynojet.

I will bring my laptop with my bike next time we meet and show you the TPS/RPM tables working. I don't have a wideband kit so my AFR isn't displayed. IMO opinion a wideband is only useful if you plan on tuning the bike yourself with a datalogger. My PCV can also tune off Pressure/Temp as well as RPM/TPS for turbo applications. Im going to sell mine soon though, put my bike back to stock the other day and im enjoying the quieter exhaust note on the street.

Are you considering a PCV? They are a nice bit of kit and the software is easy to use

[SPP]

^^ like that^^

Hey, I suppose you could leave factory O2 in and tune fuel around factory closed loop area but then you'd have to know where that was. Plug in the O2 eliminator (or buy another if it's missing) and don't worry about it (without Autotune).

An O2/Autotune is handy though and works better if you set up per gear mapping and let it trim each gear fuel map differently.

[The Reibz]

An O2/Autotune is handy though and works better if you set up per gear mapping and let it trim each gear fuel map differently.

As cool as it sounds it would realistically take hundreds of dyno pulls to achieve such a awesome feat. Using a data logger with road tuning would be so painful it just wouldn't be worth it.
Gear mapping would be redundant in a street application IMO. Track yes, street no.

If I was to go the PCV route again, I wouldn't. Was alot of money for a nice bit of kit which didn't really help my bike to much. Opened the top end right up, but your never going over 5000rpm on a busa during normal (legal) street riding. If you keen to do it though Phil, go for it. Its a fun thing to learn, tweaking various settings and shit to see how it runs. Dyno time is expensive though, I would consider taking the bike to Tauranga if you go down that route. Hear good things about the tuner down there.

[SPP]

As cool as it sounds it would realistically take hundreds of dyno pulls to achieve such a awesome feat. Using a data logger with road tuning would be so painful it just wouldn't be worth it.
Gear mapping would be redundant in a street application IMO. Track yes, street no.

If I was to go the PCV route again, I wouldn't. Was alot of money for a nice bit of kit which didn't really help my bike to much. Opened the top end right up, but your never going over 5000rpm on a busa during normal (legal) street riding. If you keen to do it though Phil, go for it. Its a fun thing to learn, tweaking various settings and shit to see how it runs. Dyno time is expensive though, I would consider taking the bike to Tauranga if you go down that route. Hear good things about the tuner down there.

Letting autotune do its thing on separate fuel maps is no different to what you'd normally do with one anyway.

• load a good base map... same for each gear
• ride the bike and let autotune do its thing.

Since there's different fuel tables for each gear the trim values will be gear specific and could be different for the same TPS/RPM. Accept trims when you're happy and they look about right then pull autotune.

Whether a PC is worth it or not, dunno, really depends on what you want to fix and how much it pisses you off. I got a PCV mostly to fix a 3k flat spot/stumble only really annoying when commuting. I could have lived with it for sure and $350 is a fair bit to sort it out but I figured fuck it.

[The Reibz]

^^ Good cunt comment, totally un-KBlike

Never used a autotune but have heard bad things from a few American tuners. One cunt actually recommended that I use one for a turbo busa build. Fuck that, like im going to put 15k worth of engine parts to chance with dynojet...
Do you have experience with autotune? Would be all ears as to how it worked out for you, I don't have faith in it, but I would really like to be proven wrong. Personally I think it has limitless potential when the software has the ability and intelligence to support the hardware.

I like the PCV as a product. Def worth the money, its just all up to the user and what he/her wants.

[p.dath]

I see someone has been reading the book I lent them.

I sure have!

If you keen to do it though Phil, go for it. Its a fun thing to learn, tweaking various settings and shit to see how it runs

I would love to learn more about it. I don't really want my bike to develop more power, I'm happy with how much power it makes, but I think it could be made a lot smoother. In particular the prior owner has fitted a new exhaust system, and I don't think the bike runs as good as it could.

But if I did get a PCV, the real reason would be to just learn more about the technology. But the cost is probably just too far out of my reach.

Never used a autotune but have heard bad things from a few American tuners.

That's a bummer. The idea of being able to load actual AFR ratios that you want, and have the PCV adapt to that value, sounds much smarter than a simple boost/trim pule width scenario. For example, I wouldn't want to pay for a dyno run on my bike, but a wideband sensor should be able to help smooth out the delivery of the power with the after market exhaust (I hope ...).

[p.dath]

Letting autotune do its thing on separate fuel maps is no different to what you'd normally do with one anyway.

• load a good base map... same for each gear
• ride the bike and let autotune do its thing.

...
I got a PCV mostly to fix a 3k flat spot/stumble only really annoying when commuting. I could have lived with it for sure and $350 is a fair bit to sort it out but I figured fuck it.

That is what I was thinking about with the autotune module, and it sounds like you got one for a similar reason that I am interested in them.

[p.dath]

Did you guys get your units from a local distributor, or just buy them in from overseas?

[The Reibz]

If you ask me a Autotune would only be useful if you lived in a area without access to a Dyno, or you were changing altitude alot. Give one a go though, I would be interested to see how it works.
They def are not recommended in the Hayabusa community and the PCV is now being seen as redundant technology compared to ECU Editor.

I brought mine overseas. The price from AMPS was ridiculous

[ducatilover]

If you ask me a Autotune would only be useful if you lived in a area without access to a Dyno, or you were changing altitude alot.

Have to agree with teh Reibz here. Autotune is a nice feature, but it won't make the power or ridability you'll get from someone smart with a dyno
Microsquirt systems are nice and cheap, however. They work well and are very easy to use/tune (you can run the same interface on your PC as MegaSquirt, which is unbelievable value for money)

[SPP]

I like the PCV as a product. Def worth the money, its just all up to the user and what he/her wants.

yeah they do what they say they do. I like 'em but wouldn't be the first thing I bought.

Did you guys get your units from a local distributor, or just buy them in from overseas?

There's a local distributor? motomummy

If you ask me a Autotune would only be useful if you lived in a area without access to a Dyno, or you were changing altitude alot. Give one a go though, I would be interested to see how it works.
They def are not recommended in the Hayabusa community and the PCV is now being seen as redundant technology compared to ECU Editor.

Yeah, don't have one on the Honda. A random UK map from a mate sorted fueling well enough that I haven't felt the need to fiddle further.

I read heaps of people bagging autotune which put me off to start with but the R6 guys seemed to think it worked well enough so long as you set up per gear trimming. I got one and yeah, it was ok but was only on the bike long enough to make a couple of maps from a generic dynojet one then it got pulled and stuck in the shed.

Here's the thing though, I noticed that for the first few runs it would trim some, add some and the throttle would get crisper and smoother over all. After a few more runs the throttle got almost too crisp and bike too willing. I ended up going back to a slightly richer map since I liked it better a little fatter (especially at low % throttle).

As with most things there's probably more to fine tuning a bike than hitting 'optimal' AFRs and this is where a smart fulla with a dyno will come into his own.