Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement

[Ocean1]

Well apparently WE cannot be trusted with any of the story, hence the "behind closed doors".
Irony right there eh.

Honestly, you think politicians and business corporates can be trusted to look after our best interests all the while DELIBERATELY keeping us in the dark?
Again....Seriously?

When has there ever been a trade agreement the provisions of which were known before signing? Those same corporations we hear so much about would have a field day milking the market for all it was worth before and after sign-off. How do you prevent that?

Do you seriously think politicians and businesses are out to make you less well off? Where's the benefit in that? Where's the profit? Trade deals can and have benefited both parties before now and there's no reason to suspect that won't be the case for any future ones. Sure, individual markets / industries / jobs are likely to become better or worse off, but a mutually advantageous agreement means the overall economy is better off. Why else sign it?

[Scuba_Steve]

When has there ever been a trade agreement the provisions of which were known before signing? Those same corporations we hear so much about would have a field day milking the market for all it was worth before and after sign-off. How do you prevent that?

Do you seriously think politicians and businesses are out to make you less well off? Where's the benefit in that? Where's the profit? Trade deals can and have benefited both parties before now and there's no reason to suspect that won't be the case for any future ones. Sure, individual markets / industries / jobs are likely to become better or worse off, but a mutually advantageous agreement means the overall economy is better off. Why else sign it?

Who do you think these "trade deals" are for seriously??? I mean really think about it, they're not gonna advantage the everyday person only trade deal that'd do that would be no import tax/duties & that's a very fucking simple agreement which doesn't need to be done in secret

As for your 2nd part, Govts & leaders have a LONG history of screwing over the people, America for one is great at it; maybee you should look into history sometime. They'll quite happily fuck over their people for self gain & it should be noted most our politicians make more money outside of Govt than in it like from the sort of companies that are set to advantage with the TPPA (maybee that's why sign). This isn't for the people or the NZ business, hell that should be apparent by the fact we don't get anything until 2030. This is for the large corporates (suspected of drafting the bill) so they can further expand & monopolise.

[Ocean1]

Who do you think these "trade deals" are for seriously??? I mean really think about it, they're not gonna advantage the everyday person only trade deal that'd do that would be no import tax/duties & that's a very fucking simple agreement which doesn't need to be done in secret

As for your 2nd part, Govts & leaders have a LONG history of screwing over the people, America for one is great at it; maybee you should look into history sometime. They'll quite happily fuck over their people for self gain & it should be noted most our politicians make more money outside of Govt than in it like from the sort of companies that are set to advantage with the TPPA (maybee that's why sign). This isn't for the people or the NZ business, hell that should be apparent by the fact we don't get anything until 2030. This is for the large corporates (suspected of drafting the bill) so they can further expand & monopolise.

The everyday person is precisely who "trade deals" are for. Who the fuck else benefits from not having 300% slapped on the price of their product at the border? Oh I know, that's just more profit for local business eh? Well yeah, and their employees, y'know, the combination that actually create economic prosperity?

And your second part is straight out of disaffected labour / union paranoia from 30 years ago. Think about it, if politicians and their big pharma / oil mates were screwing you over as often and as thoroughly as you claim you'd have nothing left to give them. Parasites only kill sick hosts. Get some new psychoses, those ones are boring.

[sugilite:Me]

When has there ever been a trade agreement the provisions of which were known before signing? Those same corporations we hear so much about would have a field day milking the market for all it was worth before and after sign-off. How do you prevent that?

Do you seriously think politicians and businesses are out to make you less well off? Where's the benefit in that? Where's the profit? Trade deals can and have benefited both parties before now and there's no reason to suspect that won't be the case for any future ones. Sure, individual markets / industries / jobs are likely to become better or worse off, but a mutually advantageous agreement means the overall economy is better off. Why else sign it?

You seem to have two different standards here. Wikileaks not providing full documents. "Don't trust them!". Government and big business not providing any documents "They always do that, nothing to see here".
Do you honestly think big business sit around the boardroom table discussing "how to be fair to the people" or is it realistically "How do we maximize our profits and charge the most we possibly can for our products and services"?
Think Contact Energy recently being exposed as charging their poorest customers the highest price. How is that helping their customers that need the help most? Why do they do it? perhaps because the poorest have the smallest voice. After the TPPA is signed and sealed the little people (that's the likes of you and I in politicians and big business eyes pal) will have NO voice.

[Ocean1]

You seem to have two different standards here. Wikileaks not providing full documents. "Don't trust them!". Government and big business not providing any documents "They always do that, nothing to see here".
Do you honestly think big business sit around the boardroom table discussing "how to be fair to the people" or is it realistically "How do we maximize our profits and charge the most we possibly can for our products and services"?
Think Contact Energy recently being exposed as charging their poorest customers the highest price. How is that helping their customers that need the help most? Why do they do it? perhaps because the poorest have the smallest voice. After the TPPA is signed and sealed the little people (that's the likes of you and I in politicians and big business eyes pal) will have NO voice.

No double standards there. The govt, like their trade partners are responsible for economic regulation, they have a remit to do exactly that by way of regular elections, and the fact is they can't actually fulfil that obligation if most of the agreement is open to public scrutiny.

Parties interested in the various outcomes of such commercial deals and releasing partial details of confidential documents stolen from undisclosed sources are responsible for who? Responsible to who? Their agenda is what? Their overall support is what? Only one' thing's certain: their objective is always to damage or destroy selected elements of agreement negotiations, not to return the best overall deal NZ can achieve from such negotiations.

The former is a necessary component of a constructive process. The later is the attempted destruction of same.

You seem to think that because some commercial enterprises behaviour is less than ethically ideal that all business has the primary objective of fucking everyone over. Nothing could be further from the truth, poor people do not make good customers.

[Scuba_Steve]

The everyday person is precisely who "trade deals" are for. Who the fuck else benefits from not having 300% slapped on the price of their product at the border? Oh I know, that's just more profit for local business eh? Well yeah, and their employees, y'know, the combination that actually create economic prosperity?

And your second part is straight out of disaffected labour / union paranoia from 30 years ago. Think about it, if politicians and their big pharma / oil mates were screwing you over as often and as thoroughly as you claim you'd have nothing left to give them. Parasites only kill sick hosts. Get some new psychoses, those ones are boring.

Again if it was for the people it would be as simple as no import duties/tax nothing more... This is not for the people you obviously live an ignorant life sheltered from the real world must be bliss how is big business being able to sue NZ good for the people??? How is higher drug prices good for the people??? How is software patent law good for the people (or anyone really)???

And no, America poisoned people rather than have them drink booze, they planned to kill their own people to "justify" killing more in another country, they made the poor sick this shit happens all the time it's not "union paranoia from 30 years ago". People in Govt are psychopaths by definition, psychopaths don't give a shit about anyone else

[Ocean1]

Again if it was for the people it would be as simple as no import duties/tax nothing more... This is not for the people you obviously live an ignorant life sheltered from the real world must be bliss how is big business being able to sue NZ good for the people??? How is higher drug prices good for the people??? How is software patent law good for the people (or anyone really)???

And no, America poisoned people rather than have them drink booze, they planned to kill their own people to "justify" killing more in another country, they made the poor sick this shit happens all the time it's not "union paranoia from 30 years ago". People in Govt are psychopaths by definition, psychopaths don't give a shit about anyone else

Best you find yourself a wee island then, where you don't have to deal with anyone at all.

[puddytat]

What about the bit that does not allow any of the signatories to for whatever reason, place trade embargoes or sanctions on Israel.?

Its no fucking tinfoil hat conspiracy....it IS in the Draft .

Its a redneck motherfucker Corporate & Jewery conspiracy.

Going to be good for us? Who are you fuckin kidding.

[sugilite:Me]

they have a remit to do exactly that by way of regular elections, and the fact is they can't actually fulfil that obligation if most of the agreement is open to public scrutiny.

Why is that? It is called transparency. You seem to be saying they can do their backroom deals and we the public can just take our lumps?

Parties interested in the various outcomes of such commercial deals and releasing partial details of confidential documents stolen from undisclosed sources are responsible for who? Responsible to who? Their agenda is what? Their overall support is what? Only one' thing's certain: their objective is always to damage or destroy selected elements of agreement negotiations, not to return the best overall deal NZ can achieve from such negotiations.

So in your World anyone who tries to expose hidden deals is a trouble maker? Even if they are only revealing some of the facts, that is still 100% more than Governments and big business are wanting to reveal.

The former is a necessary component of a constructive process.

Total absolute bullshit. It is not necessary. So it takes a longer if it is transparent and they get these things ticked of in a democratic way. Whats the freaking hurry? "We need to do this in secret for your own good". Ocean1, you are a politicians and gouging business mans wet dream.

You seem to think that because some commercial enterprises behavior is less than ethically ideal that all business has the primary objective of fucking everyone over. Nothing could be further from the truth, poor people do not make good customers.

Some? SOME? Petroleum company's taking longer to drop prices in response to market conditions but lightening fast to raise them. Power companies doing the same. Big companies paying next to no tax. There are examples of gouging everywhere. Give me some examples of this big business benevolence you seem to think exists?
As for poor people making bad customers. The banks love poor people. Those that max out credit cards and pay the minimum amount make banks VERY rich, then if a poor person misses a electronic payment, POW a $15 to $20 missed payment charge. For something that costs the bank next to nothing, less than the blink of an eye in a computer. Fast food joints make plenty off poor people too. The pre-mentioned power companies, the list goes on and on.

I'm with scuba_steve, you must live in this fluffy white cloud wrapped up in a warped sense of reality. Either that or you just like have a good ole argument on the internet with your clear and demonstrated double standards serving your agenda well.

[pete376403]

Even Obamas own party don't think a whole lot of the TTPA
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/13/us...democrats.html

[Scuba_Steve]

Best you find yourself a wee island then, where you don't have to deal with anyone at all.

I found one, still living here; unfortunately alot of people we don't want here thought it would be a good place to come to too

[Brian d marge]

I found one, still living here; unfortunately alot of people we don't want here thought it would be a good place to come to too

The scuttlebut is that people with money are future proofing in places like nz
As europe and america implode the money is looking for a safe haven
The thinking is nz

The tppa is too much of a oafish attempt at law

What are they really up to

Or what solution will they offer

Problem reaction solution ( its a good phrase that fits )







Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[Ocean1]

Why is that? It is called transparency. You seem to be saying they can do their backroom deals and we the public can just take our lumps?


So in your World anyone who tries to expose hidden deals is a trouble maker? Even if they are only revealing some of the facts, that is still 100% more than Governments and big business are wanting to reveal.


Total absolute bullshit. It is not necessary. So it takes a longer if it is transparent and they get these things ticked of in a democratic way. Whats the freaking hurry? "We need to do this in secret for your own good". Ocean1, you are a politicians and gouging business mans wet dream.


Some? SOME? Petroleum company's taking longer to drop prices in response to market conditions but lightening fast to raise them. Power companies doing the same. Big companies paying next to no tax. There are examples of gouging everywhere. Give me some examples of this big business benevolence you seem to think exists?
As for poor people making bad customers. The banks love poor people. Those that max out credit cards and pay the minimum amount make banks VERY rich, then if a poor person misses a electronic payment, POW a $15 to $20 missed payment charge. For something that costs the bank next to nothing, less than the blink of an eye in a computer. Fast food joints make plenty off poor people too. The pre-mentioned power companies, the list goes on and on.

I'm with scuba_steve, you must live in this fluffy white cloud wrapped up in a warped sense of reality. Either that or you just like have a good ole argument on the internet with your clear and demonstrated double standards serving your agenda well.

Dude, repeating the same thing ad infinitum don't constitute valid discourse. If it did I'd simply refer you back to my last answer to essentially the same post.

Trendy socialists, union leaders and unemployable academics have been bleating about trade agreements since forever. Funnily enough if you look at the history of trade agreements New Zealand are currently participants in you'll see pretty much nothing but benefits to the NZ public.

Allow me...

Note that NZ's free trade agreement with China was signed in 2008.

And for transparency: http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/research_and...4/5617432.html

Yeah I know, THIS time it's different, the bogeymen really are here this time.

[mashman]

[BMWST?]

i cannot see that any "agreement" that gives a conglomerate the ability to overturn a countries own laws can be good for the average Joe Lunchbox.It reveals imho just who really want this agreement