Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement

[Robbo]

I did not know that and am surprised that Oscar hasn't waded in to correct us all with a jolly good spanking.[/QUOTE]


LOL, Yep, he can't be far away.

Cheers

[pete376403]

Very well put Mashman. I think that erring on the side of caution would be the wise choice in this case. When is this due for parliaments discussion/decision?

Parliament will find out about the same time as the rest of us. There won't be any open discussion, its all being done in secret. Not just here, the US Congress is complaining they are being kept in the dark as well.

[avgas]

TPPA ... we don't know the details so I can't have an opinion yet. Somehow the protesters can though. We'll be seing a lot of this sort of thing until the election. I can see the placards now "Down with this sort of thing" (so they can be used to protest about different things each weekend) Hmmm ... a couple of thousand people across the country protested about TPPA. That means well over four million people didn't protest...

Can't really blame them too much. The alternative they currently have is to vote for someone to make decisions for them.

Am I for/against the TPPA. Not yet. I would prefer FTA with these countries instead however.

[awa355]

Parliament will find out about the same time as the rest of us. There won't be any open discussion, its all being done in secret. Not just here, the US Congress is complaining they are being kept in the dark as well.

A lot ( millions ) of Americans are against this proposed trade agreement as well. It is going to have the impact on their jobs, wage increases, employment laws, enviroment laws, rights etc same as in most countries that are being ' levered' into this collective agreement.

" sign up or else ". Twenty three chapters to this TPPA circus, only five are about trade and they are mostly guaranteeing protection for American monopolies. The remaining chapters are about business rights to sue goverments and force ( in our case ) law changes where current laws are a barrier to their profit making. eg, minimum wages, union rights, etc.

An example could be an American company wants to build a big exclusive retirement township and marina somewhere. They use this TPP agreement to bulldoze any local by laws, enviroment concerns etc.

Thats my take on this, I will not have it dead right, but bet I wont be far wrong.

[Banditbandit]

Thanks for the source mashie ...

Thanks Awa, yes, i can definately see the problems and implications in that but does anyone have any negative facts that would apply directly to us. Otherwise we just have to put our faith in the Govt. to make the right calls on our behalf. I know that previous Govt decisions have gone pear shaped in the past but i tend to give John Key a little more credit than that. I guess time will tell whatever the outcome.

I'm sorry - but I have little or no faith in our Government - and I have less faith in the trader known as John Key - trading is what he does - and he is trading away our laws and our sovereignty ..


This worries me ...

The arbitral tribunal concluded that a jury decision in private contract litigation constituted a government measure that was subject to NAFTA’s investor rules.

This means, under current arrangements, a tribunal said that the laws of the country were subject to the higher power of NAFTA.

This part is a worry

Increasingly decisions issued under this system see foreign investors being granted greater rights than are provided to domestic firms and investors under the Constitutions, laws and court systems of host countries. In several instances, arbitral tribunals have gone beyond awards of cash damages and issued injunctive relief that creates severe conflicts of law.

The constitution and laws of a country can be over-ridden by a foreign tribunal? The constitution and laws are subject to a Trade Agreement?


I would hope that this worries you enough to not sit on the fence, or hope that our Government "does the right thing" - by the time we find out, it will be signed and sealed and there will be little we can do about it .. The Government will have signed away our sovereignty

Even the Australian Government are not agreeing with this.

[gjm]

"John Key has gone off to market with our cow and he has come back with 3 magic TPPA beans, and we are going to be like, ‘John, where’s our cow mate?’, and John is going to exclaim, ‘But I gots us some magic TPPA beans’, and we are going to be like, ‘John, mate, where’s the bloody cow?’, and John’s going to go on and on and on about his freaking magic beans while we stand around in open mouthed shock that he’s handed our fucking cow over for some ‘magic TPPA’ beans." - Martyn Bradbury

Claims that NZ would benefit by $billions (between $3bn and $5bn, depending on source) have been examined, found to have no basis in evidence, and likely actual benefit might be something like 25% of that claimed. Outflow, whether economic or IP, from NZ is going to exceed any income, and a very small % of already powerful peole will benefit. The rest of us can get back to the salt mines.

[MisterD]

"‘Until the government makes Parliament responsible for overseeing, signing and then ratifying treaties, they should be honest with the New Zealand public: the Executive, in other words the Cabinet, decides what to negotiate, instructs the officials, signs the treaty and ratifies it’, Kelsey said."

Well that's a massive fail, isn't it? Once the Treaty is agreed, it still has to go through parliamentary debate, select committee etc etc, and be voted on just like any other piece of legislation.

It might be very likely to pass, because hey, the government's the government because it has the numbers to pass the legislation it wants, but to say that it's all done through some kind of secret backdoor is flat wrong.

Remember Clarkula's Foreign Minister, a certain Winston Peters, voting against the China free trade deal? Are the conspiracy and protest nuts out in force on this one because a) last time it was Labour and this time it's National or b) this treaty will include the US or c) both?

[Oscar]

I did not know that and am surprised that Oscar hasn't waded in to correct us all with a jolly good spanking.

I'm not here to facilitate your nasty habits.
Besides, you can't afford me.

[Oscar]

Well that's a massive fail, isn't it? Once the Treaty is agreed, it still has to go through parliamentary debate, select committee etc etc, and be voted on just like any other piece of legislation.

It might be very likely to pass, because hey, the government's the government because it has the numbers to pass the legislation it wants, but to say that it's all done through some kind of secret backdoor is flat wrong.

Remember Clarkula's Foreign Minister, a certain Winston Peters, voting against the China free trade deal? Are the conspiracy and protest nuts out in force on this one because a) last time it was Labour and this time it's National or b) this treaty will include the US or c) both?

Jaysus, what are you doing, man?
You can't come in here talking good sense like that!

You'll spoil the conspiracy circle jerk.
Besides, the average anti TPP poster is an intellectual giant who looks down on the ordinary voter sheeple that make up the majority.
The Government in power is merely a tool of the corporations and doesn't reflect the will of the benighted ignorant who actually vote for it.

[scrivy]

If it's as good as they envisage, then why do it secretively???

[SPman]

Besides, the average anti TPP poster is an intellectual giant who looks down on the ordinary voter sheeple that make up the majority.
The Government in power is merely a tool of the corporations and doesn't reflect the will of the benighted ignorant who actually vote for it.

Now you're talking...

[Brian d marge]

If it's as good as they envisage, then why do it secretively???

Agreed if it was so good
Why is it secret

Baaa

Stephen

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[Brian d marge]

Jaysus, what are you doing, man?
You can't come in here talking good sense like that!

You'll spoil the conspiracy circle jerk.
Besides, the average anti TPP poster is an intellectual giant who looks down on the ordinary voter sheeple that make up the majority.
The Government in power is merely a tool of the corporations and doesn't reflect the will of the benighted ignorant who actually vote for it.

I take it you hold the opposite view

Stephen

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[Oscar]

I take it you hold the opposite view

Stephen

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Life is too short to get wound up about a treaty that is still being negotiated.
If it turns out to be a horror show, parliament won't ratify it, and/or it will become an election issue.
Say what you like about a three year term, but in NZ political chickens come home to roost on a regular basis...

[pete376403]

Life is too short to get wound up about a treaty that is still being negotiated.
If it turns out to be a horror show, parliament won't ratify it, and/or it will become an election issue.
Say what you like about a three year term, but in NZ political chickens come home to roost on a regular basis...

THe current parliament would ratify it because the nats and their hangers on are good boys and girls who do what john tells them. And once its in, would a future government be able to get out of the agreement if they wanted to? Once the TPP is in place, then it means the majority of our major trading partners are going to be signed up to it as well. Would they trade with us if we were out of the agreement? Or if they would, then its going to be on their terms, ie really unfavourable to NZ, after all, where else can we go?