Proposal to delete rule 24.2.1 - Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited

[husaberg]

Yep. Guess we should pass the info on to MNZ and stop these lazy #### 100cc riders from being so, ahh, lazy!
Oh no wait that's not very nice. I know, lets not stop at 107cc as proposed, lets make it 111cc

Kel show me the information that ethanol does not lower intake temps again.......... i have asked you 4 times.

For those that missed the last attempt to drum up support from the Air cooled boy this was the last attempt to push through E85
the reasoning was the same the fact it was a clear attemppt to pervert the rules was the same
although at this time it was oh e85 would not make a air-cooled 2 stroke run cooler...

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...kets-fuel-rule

[kel]

e85 waffle waffle waffle

Oh I still want E85 but if you bothered to deal with the proposed rule changes rather than acting as the troll that you are you would see, as everyone else does, that E85 is clearly excluded.
What did Dave say recently, wasn't it "Back under your bridge where you belong" fitting isn't it.

[husaberg]

Oh I still want E85 but if you bothered to deal with the proposed rule changes rather than acting as the troll that you are you would see, as everyone else does, that E85 is clearly excluded.
What did Dave say recently, wasn't it "Back under your bridge where you belong" fitting isn't it.

But the point is you constantly harped on the e85 would offer no advantage yet when as it has been clearly mentioned even by others including by Rob here here that it would. Which thoughts do you stand by So kel would E85 offer a cooling advantage or Not .........

I ask you yet again to prove that any ethanol fuel does not provide a cooling advantage for an aircooled two stroke..............
I can draw a conclusion, can you........

Re the Troll For the record Kel i have repeatedly tried to debate the issue on its merits you continue to snipe and refuse to answer questions when cornered you resort to personal attacks.............

[richban]

Massive tech advantage really?

WHAT I MEANT WAS, YOU CAN MAKE TWICE THE HORSEPOWER WITH A 2 STROKE.

Technically the rules give a massive advantage.

A capacity advantage for 2 strokes.


Just seams know one can make one the spits 400hp per litre of 350 per litre. But the for stokes are better developed at the moment. Take a nice tuned GPR bike. 26.5 hp thats 170 per litre. Double that for a 2 stroke and still know one has come close to 34hp.


Oh what a good wind up this is. With all the free info available on the net, and the ESE thread is a gold mine how come there are no 34hp 100's out there.

[Yow Ling]

. With all the free info available on the net, and the ESE thread is a gold mine how come there are no 34hp 100's out there.

Cos there no app to download. Would have to get dirty hands

[richban]

M
Yes buckets are a formula class, but it is meant to be a affordable formula class..........

Oh you walked into that one mate.


WTFuck dude.

Cheapest motor sport there is. What you spend is up to you. If you want to play at the top. Learn how to ride and don't eat so many pies and ummmmmm, yep its still fucken cheap. Its only the fat old whining gits like you and me and all the other old cocks on here that spend loads of cash trying to make up for the fact that we are not young or skinny.

[husaberg]

Oh you walked into that one mate.


WTFuck dude.

Cheapest motor sport there is. What you spend is up to you. If you want to play at the top. Learn how to ride and don't eat so many pies and ummmmmm, yep its still fucken cheap. Its only the fat old whining gits like you and me and all the other old cocks on here that spend loads of cash trying to make up for the fact that we are not young or skinny.

All very very true but i are no longer A fatty...........

[Kickaha]

All very very true but i are no longer A fatty...........

Compared to who? Buddha?

[husaberg]

Compared to who? Buddha?

I am well under 80, Buddha carries his weight well.........for a fatty (i can out run him)

For those that like facts and figures.
Unrelated to Budha

This is because the latent heat of vaporization for ethanol (904 kJ/kg) is almost three
times higher than that of gasoline (317.7 kJ/kg). In other words ethanol droplets will need almost
three times higher sensible heat for the same temperature rise compared to the gasoline droplet.
Thus, the effect of latent heat is reflected in the surface temperature plot, as the surface
temperature of the droplet determines the corresponding vapor pressure. Figure 7b also shows
that temperature rise for gasoline droplet is faster than ethanol droplet..

Oh look any ethanol petrol blend fuel has a cooling advantage compared to a straight petrol blend Gee or would have guesses that.............

[speedpro]

The RG400 pistons I used in my TF100 were the rear ones. If I recall, I used the rears due to the pin offset direction. Even with very careful prep I only used them for 2 meetings before replacing. They developed cracks which if you let them go would cause the rear skirt to drop off, or if you were lucky a crack would extend right to the crown and then a little hole would burn through. They weren't cheap. Don't know about now. The cracking was likely due to the enlarged piston ports in the bottom rear of the TF cylinder.

People with 100cc 2 strokes aren't pushing the boundaries of what's possible. Failures have not been due to power levels but rather to failed experiments or poor prep or a few other things. It does seem that right now there is no need. A fast rider on a light good handling bike with an engine that makes 25hp(ish) is plenty.

With all the listed pistons above I have not seen any that come close to rivalling the KT pistons for price, design, or availability. Plus with the KT's very small increments of .05mm oversizes, as I've said, the cylinders will last forever, unless you're unlucky.

Making the engine 2cc larger is not going to make much difference to performance of any bike currently running. There's other things that need to be done that will have a far greater effect on performance. The BIG thing is the piston cost and availability, and having a cylinder's life extended.

[jasonu]

How do the front and rear piston rg vary?
if they have contra rotating cranks and reversed cylinders is it just the tolerances that vary?

No idea mate. We used mostly MB pistons. Had to move the ring pin to make them work. Never broke one.

[jasonu]

Oh what a good wind up this is. With all the free info available on the net, and the ESE thread is a gold mine how come there are no 34hp 100's out there.

They came very close but the bike was unrideable and wouldn't stay together long enough to finish a race.

[husaberg]

graph 2 shows temp difference between petrol and (E50) 50/50 ethanol petrol at approx 3 degrees Kelvin
graph 1 shows temp difference between petrol and E10 at approx 4 degrees Kelvin now thats exciting But at least after all your hot air you have actually managed to contribute something related to the thread.
4 degrees Kelvin or 111cc hmm
E10 vs dirty old leaded Avgas for max power
Winning arguments all round Husa

Perhaps as you now have just freely admitted,” that it is an advantage in regards to intake cooling.”
You can show us how that "little couple "of degrees intake temp affects power output.


I note that you have previously stuck to the opinion that e85 would also offer no advantage in regards to power output and cooling...

So looking at the fact that E85 clearly and clearly and blatantly obviously does, as does any fuel that contains ethanol. Does that not clearly demonstrate that your original stance was totally incorrect?

[FastFred]

Perhaps as you now have just freely admitted,” that it is an advantage in regards to intake cooling.” You can show us how that "little couple "of degrees intake temp affects power output.

I think the arguments have been that in practical terms the 10% Ethanol that would be allowed with the proposed deletion of the no alcohol rule wont improve the power output in an air cooled 2T and may in fact be a negative.

But perhaps from that SAE paper you can show us how the "little couple" of degrees intake temp from 10% Ethanol affects power output of an air cooled 2T motor.

I have read this thread from the beginning, most of the arguments seem to have merit and I am following it with interest as I imagine others are too. But I think if you want to keep talking about E85 maybe you should start another thread as E85 has no relevance on this one. This thread is about deleting one rule and changing another, E85 does not come into it anywhere.

[husaberg]

I think the arguments have been that in practical terms the 10% Ethanol that would be allowed wont improve the power output in an air cooled 2T and may in fact be a negative.

So Perhaps from that SAE paper you can show us how that "little couple" of degrees intake temp from 10% Ethanol affects power output of an air cooled 2T.

I have read this from the beginning, most of the arguments seem to have merit and I am following it with interest as I imagine others are too. But I think if you want to keep talking about E85 maybe you should start another thread as E85 has no relevance on this on. This is about deleting one rule and changing another E85 does not come into it anywhere.

E85 is being mentioned, solely as the last time ethanol use was debated someone repeatedly and consistently inferred that they could see no advantage in its use in an air cooled 2 stroke. despite evidence being presented to the contrary.......
It is raised solely because it speaks to the integirity of their subsequent arguments.

With the E10 "A little couple of degrees of intake temp" actually makes a difference....
I would suggest much more than a few cc's of capacity would.

This in mind, would you conversely suggest that it is ok to run an oversize engine that is larger than the rules body state as beng legal"as it would only make a small difference"......
However small a difference anyone deems it to be. It is still an advantage.

Esp when you take into account that the mixture in a tuned two stroke would be optimised for an ethanol mixture, thus would be substantially richer than the standard fuel mixtures likely used in the examples, thus compounding the advantage, Everyone knows ethanol likes to be run richer.
Re the Sae papers, it is not up to me to prove how small a difference it makes, It is up to the protagonists to prove that it doesn't.
As they are stating that it does not.
I have seen no evidence at all presented, that it does not.
Yet i have presented evidence that it does provide an advantage.
Despite myself reapeatidly asking for evidence to back the oposing opinion from someone.
In response they presented nothing to back their position. Indeed they just resort to personal attacks and sniping..........

Yet i have easily shown that it does have a cooling advantage.
However insignificant you or how significant i deem it to be.
At the end of the day submissions and feedback will be made and the MNZ will do what ever they deem to be in the best interests of the sport as a whole.