Proposal to delete rule 24.2.1 - Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited

[TZ350]

... there is already separation within MOMS between road racing and miniature road racing.

Thanks Bert ... can you point me to where this separation is stated in the current rules.

[Bert]

Thanks Bert ... can you point me to where this separation is stated in the current rules.

Really Rob? Ok how do you interrupt the structure of the current rules?
Start at chapter 1-3 then 24, back to 10 (technical) then back to 24 (sidecars),appendix D as a different class from championship classes (which has slight differences), now to F from 10 & D (or what ever for fuel). The mere fact that 24 exists warrants reference in 10 & D in how F will be applied. Otherwise it is an assumption. Having submitted new rules in the past, 24 was actually one of the best structured set for any classes in moms, now it has lost some of its context..

Anyway E10 will work great in GPR150 or 100....

[TZ350]

Really Rob? Ok how do you interrupt the structure of the current rules?
Start at chapter 1-3 then 24, back to 10 (technical) then back to 24 (sidecars),appendix D as a different class from championship classes (which has slight differences), now to F from 10 & D (or what ever for fuel).

Its an attempt to have sections like RR technical to cover all RR classes without repeating the same thing in individual class chapters, makes it a bit fragmented, but I don't see any separation in that.

Even though something specific is not mentioned in the Miniature RR Chapter 24, F4 F5 still have to abide by the RR technical, fuel, championship etc chapters, same as everyone else that is road racing.

And that is why we are fitting shark fins and rear tail lights in bad weather, just like the others are. There is nothing special about F4 F5 bikes, they are just another RR class, albeit the best one in my opinion.

[Grumph]

10.17.1 The following classes shall be restricted to petrol having maximum
characteristics not exceeding “Avgas or Unleaded FIM” as defined in Appendix
E. Motocross, Stadium/Supercross, Miniature TT, Trials, Enduro, Cross Country,
ATV, Stockbike, Solo, All Road Race classes except those classes listed in
10.17.2 and 10.17.3. All Mini and Junior classes.

I see words in there like "all road race classes" which F4 and F5 (Miniature Road Racing) are a part of, "being restricted to petrol as defined by appendix E".

The rule book is a bit fragmented and confusing with its different sections, but it looks to me that F4 & F5 are clearly covered by the term "all road race classes" and are restricted to petrol as defined in appendix E. Its only the specific RR classes that are named that are able to use a fuel other than petrol and that fuel is defined in E too.

Alex.

Exackery...appendix E has not been changed so while in theory you are allowed to use an alcohol "additive" - note no maximum level specified - if you were protested on it, appendix E definition of the suitable fuel would still take precedence. And it's not the only stuff up in E either - last time I looked most Methanol sold in NZ contains a colouring agent so does not meet the definition in the book...
Just another stuff up.
And NO miniature road racing has not been separated from the mainstream - you still run under MNZ rules.

[Grumph]

By the way Rob - you only have to fit shark fins if you're running in an NZ championship. Another stuff up as the approved rule change was not actioned....

[TZ350]

It all makes my head hurt ....

[kel]

It all makes my head hurt ....

I dont see why, you have clearly "read" the rules while others are trying to "interpret" the rules (or should that be interupt the rules).
10.17.1 states "All Road Race classes except those classes listed in 10.17.2 and 10.17.3. All Mini and Junior classes." we're not listed in 10.17.2 or 10.17.3
No where in Appendix E does it state you can add alcohol, it states that unleaded fuel can have a maximum of 10% ethanol. BIG difference.

Wait for it, someone has to pop up with a "but its not in the spirit of bucket racing"

[kel]

Really Rob? Ok how do you interrupt the structure of the current rules?
Start at chapter 1-3 then 24, back to 10 (technical) then back to 24 (sidecars),appendix D as a different class from championship classes (which has slight differences), now to F from 10 & D (or what ever for fuel). The mere fact that 24 exists warrants reference in 10 & D in how F will be applied. Otherwise it is an assumption. Having submitted new rules in the past, 24 was actually one of the best structured set for any classes in moms, now it has lost some of its context..

Anyway E10 will work great in GPR150 or 100....

24, YES. It had silly errors, two more have now been removed
10, YES
F, 650 pro twins, NO (not even Rich has got to 650cc).
Throw in a D, E and 1-9 and you're ready to go bucket racing. Let go of your Mom, Its all pretty straight forward.

[richban]

(not even Rich has got to 650cc).

Who needs 650cc when you have a 300 2 stroke. Maybe I should bring it to Tokaroa and see if it is faster than a bucket. I think no.

[F5 Dave]

I think ORBIT!

[Grumph]

I dont see why, you have clearly "read" the rules while others are trying to "interpret" the rules (or should that be interupt the rules).
10.17.1 states "All Road Race classes except those classes listed in 10.17.2 and 10.17.3. All Mini and Junior classes." we're not listed in 10.17.2 or 10.17.3
No where in Appendix E does it state you can add alcohol, it states that unleaded fuel can have a maximum of 10% ethanol. BIG difference.

Wait for it, someone has to pop up with a "but its not in the spirit of bucket racing"

It's still not correct though...Yes, Miniature road racing comes under 10,17.1 - but as it's written that means we can use Avgas or FIM unleaded - ONLY. NOT unleaded petrol containing ethanol...Being put under 10.17.2 would not suit most either as that would limit fuel choices to unleaded fuel only...which in the SI, usually does not contain ethanol....

What is wanted is a sensibly worded clause 10.17.2(b) - miniature road racing machinery can use fuel containing up to 10% Ethanol - or Methanol.

[kel]

It's still not correct though...

My statement is correct (Although I did use the word fuel instead of petrol).

[F5 Dave]

_{how about alcohol based drinks?}

[mr bucketracer]

as fishie would say just keep it simple

[TZ350]

10.17.1 The following classes shall be restricted to petrol having maximum characteristics not exceeding “Avgas or Unleaded FIM” as defined in Appendix E. Motocross, Stadium/Supercross, Miniature TT, Trials, Enduro, Cross Country, ATV, Stockbike, Solo, All Road Race classes except those classes listed in 10.17.2 and 10.17.3. All Mini and Junior classes.

10.17.2 The following classes shall be restricted to petrol having maximum characteristics not exceeding “unleaded Super” as defined in Appendix E. No additive maybe added to the fuel.
1. Supersport Appendix G
2. Superbike Appendix C
3. 650 Pro Twin Appendix F
4. 600 Superstock Appendix A
5. 1000 Superstock Appendix A
6. 250 Production Appendix I
7. Streetstock Chapter 22
8. Young Junior Road Race Chapter 15

10.17.3 The following classes shall have the choice of either petrol having maximum characteristics not exceeding “Avgas, Unleaded FIM” or methanol, both as defined in Appendix E. Sidecars as defined in chapter 27. National Speed Records, Hill Climb – Road and Grass, Beach, Classic Road Racing as defined in Chapter 23, Post Classic (Period 72) Road Racing as defined in Rule 25.3, Post Classic (Period 82) Road Racing as defined in Rule 25.4 (4 stroke engines only),Grass Track and Speedway Sidecars and those classes of Oval Racing defined in Chapter 19 and 20 except 20.27, 20.31 and 20.32. Any machines using methanol must display “Dangerous Goods” or other appropriate stickers that clearly indicate its use, on the machine in a prominent place e.g. number boards.

10.17.4 NOTE: Nitro methane and similar agents are prohibited in all classes of racing.

10.17.5 Fuel Specifications see Appendix E.



Appendix E