Proposal to delete rule 24.2.1 - Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited

[TZ350]

But i suggest (as i have done before) there is a reason to want Alcohol based fuels for AC engines

These would be the rules, so please tell me exactly how much alcohol fuel is allowed.

I think you will find that Methanol is specifically banned for most RR classes including Buckets.

Rules 10.17.1, 10.17.2 and 10.17.3

Attachment 295798

And Appendix E

Attachment 295796

[husaberg]

What are you going on about? Is this the Trojan horse nonsense again? Go read chapter 10 and appendix E there's nothing there that advantages the air coolers, but thanks for the scaremongering.

I must be a bit slow then, so why else would someone want to delete a rule that prohibits the use of alcohol based fuel?
Is other legal unleaded fuels in short supply.....
Nah bugger it......... its been done to death already.........

[kel]

Nah bugger it......... its been done to death already.........

I hear you, but why let the actual rules stand in the way of a good beat up

[TZ350]

I must be a bit slow then, so why else would someone want to delete a rule that prohibits the use of alcohol based fuel?

I imagine that it is not about alcohol (Methanol) fuel, because that is prohibited elsewhere. I think its because it prohibits fuel additives like pre mix engine oil and 96 plus octane boost if you want to try something cheaper (and easier to get) than Av gas.

[husaberg]

I hear you, but why let the actual rules stand in the way of a good beat up

Fair enough..... Hand on my heart, looking at all the facts available.
I see any use of fuel, that has any alcohol form in its content, disproportionately favours an air cooled two stroke.

Can you put your hand on your heart and sincerely and honestly say that you believe the use of an fuel that has any alcohol content offers no form of cooling advantage for an Air cooled two stroke?

[husaberg]

I imagine that it is not about alcohol (Methanol) fuel, because that is prohibited elsewhere. I think its because it prohibits fuel additives like pre mix engine oil and 96 plus octane boost if you want to try something cheaper (and easier to get) than Av gas.

My pick on that one is they never noticed? kicka pointed it out afterwards.
Who made the actual submission anyway?

[TZ350]

Can you put your hand on your heart and sincerely and honestly say that you believe the use of an fuel that has any alcohol content offers no form of cooling advantage for an Air cooled two stroke?

Is this going to be about semantics or practicality???

I can put hand on heart and tell you what I found in a practical sense .... as I had previously looked into it extensively on the dyno and track and found that small %%% were not very helpful, running petrol rich often had the same or better effect and I had to go to quite high ratios before alcohol was noticeably better from a cooling point of view, and then there were other issues with running much alcohol, like excessive bore wash and rusting of the bearings and seal swell.

[kel]

Can you put your hand on your heart and sincerely and honestly say that you believe the use of an fuel that has any alcohol content offers no form of cooling advantage for an Air cooled two stroke?

Certainly can. The one time I ran E10 the motor over heated and seized. I'll be sticking with dirty old Avgas, at least until I find an affordable source for the FIM unleaded.

[husaberg]

Are we talking in semantics or practicality???

I can put hand on heart and tell you what I found in a practical sense .... as I had previously looked into it extensively on the dyno and track and found that small %%% were not very helpful, running petrol rich often had the same or better effect and I had to go to quite high ratios before alcohol was noticeably better, and then there were other issues with alcohol, like excessive bore wash and rusting of the bearings and seal swell.

ya had me there with the first Draft Rob, i had to google sematic"warning of danger, as a conspicuous marking on a poisonous animal."
Hats off for a very carefully worded reply. But was it a positive effect to raise the alcohol content? such as HP or power fade losses.......

[TZ350]

... was it a positive effect to raise the alcohol content? such as HP or power fade losses.......

Back in the "Day" I ran an air cooled 2T race bike on Methanol, it only made a little more power than petrol but at a 1,000 rpm less and interestingly the engine vibrated quite differently under load compared to petrol at the same rpm.

No doubt a new chamber could have moved the alcohol rpm peak up again for even more power. But I did not know enough about chambers to think of messing with them, at the time I was into experimenting with different fuels.

True, with a high Meth mix the air cooled engine kept its cool, but with smaller amounts like 5-10-15% Meth in petrol I had deto and heating problems.

Alcohol does not like to run lean and I think that with a low Alcohol/high Petrol mix that tuning the major constituent, petrol for good power under some circumstances had the alcohol portion too lean. The balance between what the two different fuels needed was not right and detonation would heat the engine up instead of the alcohol cooling it down.

You are right, its true, the latent heat of evaporation of a fuel is directly proportional to the sum of all of its constituents but in my experience there is more to it than that and a fuel mix can lose out given the balance of other factors required to use it.

[jasonu]

What are you going on about? Is this the Trojan horse nonsense again? Go read chapter 10 and appendix E there's nothing there that advantages the air coolers, but thanks for the scaremongering.

125cc vs 100cc That is a 25% capacity advantage

[jasonu]

I imagine that it is not about alcohol (Methanol) fuel, because that is prohibited elsewhere. I think its because it prohibits fuel additives like pre mix engine oil and 96 plus octane boost if you want to try something cheaper (and easier to get) than Av gas.

But how many liters do you use (per bike) at a typical meeting? Even if av is twice the cost of pump gas you are still talking, wot, 5 liters = $25 a weekend for bike fuel... Those that choose to field and fuel more than one bike make their own bed.

[TZ350]

125cc vs 100cc That is a 25% capacity advantage

Sure in F4 2T there is a capacity advantage but with fundamental tuning restrictions on the 125. Can you name them?

[TZ350]

But how many liters do you use (per bike) at a typical meeting? Even if av is twice the cost of pump gas you are still talking, wot, 5 liters = $25 a weekend for bike fuel... Those that choose to field and fuel more than one bike make their own bed.

A lot do have King size beds and I suspect a few 4t's are using 96 and octain boost.

[richban]

Funnest thread in ages.

Lighten up boys. Go to the gym and you will go faster. Get your spring rates right and you will go way faster. Turn the throttle quicker and you might crash. Wisdom right there.