Cyclists! Why do they ride in the middle of the road?

[swbarnett]

I think this thread highlights the root of all the problems we have on the road. There is a great unwillingness to just share the road. Remember, it wasn't put there for the exclusive use of any one individual or group of individuals.

[Gremlin]

I think this thread highlights the root of all the problems we have on the road. There is a great unwillingness to just share the road. Remember, it wasn't put there for the exclusive use of any one individual or group of individuals.

Exactly why Kiwis as a group are such shit drivers. Everyone wants to be first, no-one wants to work together. When they finally wake up and realise, traffic will actually flow much better.

Interestingly, there has been a "Drive Social" campaign been going, TV ads and such. Sort of along the lines of working together.

[James Deuce]

Exactly why Kiwis as a group are such shit drivers. Everyone wants to be first, no-one wants to work together. When they finally wake up and realise, traffic will actually flow much better.

Interestingly, there has been a "Drive Social" campaign been going, TV ads and such. Sort of along the lines of working together.

Except motorcycles. They're anti-social. Run them over.

[Mushu]

What city did you ride in? I rode in Auckland in the '90s and found myself "holding up traffic" on numerous occasions. In particular while passing parked cars. I would ride out of the range of the doors after I saw a cyclist come off with a punctured lung from one. Also, there were a number of pinch points where the road was only just wide enough for the number of lanes provided. If I stayed to the left I would get passed within an inch. Slightest wobble on my part or misjudgement on theirs and I would've been history. "Holding up traffic" for a short time while you get past these pinch points doesn't even rate on the danger scale in comparison.

Christchurch and Sydney mostly. The trick is to avoid major thoroughfares when possible.

Parked car on the left, truck on the right and no room to avoid a car door swung in your face is not what I'd call safe.

Use the footpath if there is no safe alternative, don't care if it's illegal. Just make sure you slow to a speed that won't make you a danger to pedestrians

I regularly hit 40kph on the flat so I don't think it's too much to ask the traffic to slow a bit for a short time. Afterall, it stops for lights, ped crossings etc.

40km/h is fasterthan most cyclists travel at, when I used to use a bike for transport I would travel at about 30 on the flat and even that was faster than the average, there didn't seem to be as many lycra fags around those days though.
Lights, ped crossings etc are all placed where necessary and each one is a defined stop and continue but a bicycle (or bicycles) Can hold up a lot of traffic over quite a distance.

Because kids have yet to be dragged out of the ignorance of their own mortality.

The fact that kids are ignorant of their mortality would cause them to be more of a danger on the roads, I suspect it has more to do with the adults confidence that they know the road rules so they are willing to do things that are dangerous because they are ''in the right''

And yet, as has already been pointed out, in all other modes of transportation the powered vehicle gives way to the unpowered one*.




The only exception I know of is that large ships have right of way over everything else in tight channels.

Please define ''all other modes'' and why I should give a shit. My point is why should I take longer to get anywhere because you choose an inefficient mode of transport, more often than not those that cause problems are the lycra fags who ride bikes that cost more than my car and motorbike combined, so riding is not a necessity, it's a choice.

[swbarnett]

Interestingly, there has been a "Drive Social" campaign been going, TV ads and such. Sort of along the lines of working together.

The trouble is, like all campaigns of this nature, those that listen already know and those that need to be told won't listen.

[Voltaire]

This will happen when the roads are gridlocked. I lived in London for 5 years in the late 80's early 90's and road users there were much more courteous. I blame ACC and the " no fault", not having to have at least 3rd party insurance and Rugby.
Give it 10 years until you can hardly move on the city roads and it will be much better.

That 'Drive Social" makes me laugh, filmed on Highbrook drive, a 70kmph dual carriageway that the sheeple treat as a motorway.

[swbarnett]

Christchurch and Sydney mostly. The trick is to avoid major thoroughfares when possible.

I agree this is the best move but the problems I had were not just on major thoroughfares.

Use the footpath if there is no safe alternative, don't care if it's illegal. Just make sure you slow to a speed that won't make you a danger to pedestrians

Often there was no footpath on my commute. Not sure there is now on some of those roads.

I see what you're saying though. If the cyclist is slow enough to start with this can work. For those with bit of speed on it can be more dangerous transferring from road to footpath and vice versa.

40km/h is faster than most cyclists travel at, when I used to use a bike for transport I would travel at about 30 on the flat and even that was faster than the average, there didn't seem to be as many lycra fags around those days though.

Yeah, I was one of the early ones. I used to average 30kph from Mt. Albert to the Mangere bridge on my way home. No way I'd do that now.

Lights, ped crossings etc are all placed where necessary and each one is a defined stop and continue but a bicycle (or bicycles) Can hold up a lot of traffic over quite a distance.

Yes, I agree, if it's too long then it certainly gets into the territory of the inconsiderate. I have no problem with slowing for a cyclist for a short time.

The fact that kids are ignorant of their mortality would cause them to be more of a danger on the roads,

My theory is based on my belief that they're often in more danger on the side of the road than in traffic.

I suspect it has more to do with the adults confidence that they know the road rules so they are willing to do things that are dangerous because they are ''in the right''

You could well be right for most. For me it was definitely a case of self preservation.

Please define ''all other modes''

All sea travel except ships in channels. Also air travel IIRC.

and why I should give a shit.

By virtue of being slower they are less capable of avoiding a collision. Therefore the onus is on the faster vehicle to avoid the collision. Or at least that's how it works at sea.

Also, the differences between individuals is what stops life from getting suicidally boring. Respect for other road users right to use the road is all that's called for. I also object to cyclist that impede the flow of traffic more than is necessary. It's just a matter of understanding between operators of different modes of transportation.

My point is why should I take longer to get anywhere because you choose an inefficient mode of transport,

That would exclude all trucks from the roads then.

more often than not those that cause problems are the lycra fags who ride bikes that cost more than my car and motorbike combined, so riding is not a necessity, it's a choice.

So car drivers should be excluded as well. One person in all that space is pretty inefficient and if they rode a motorcycle they wouldn't hold you up.

[Mushu]

I agree this is the best move but the problems I had were not just on major thoroughfares.


Often there was no footpath on my commute. Not sure there is now on some of those roads.

I see what you're saying though. If the cyclist is slow enough to start with this can work. For those with bit of speed on it can be more dangerous transferring from road to footpath and vice versa.

So we need to slow down for them but they shouldn't need to slow down for their own self preservation? Seems a bit one sided to me. They impede the flow of traffic often, I've yet to see a lycra fag do anything to show some consideration for others on the road but it is not uncommon for kids to do things to get out of the way.

Yeah, I was one of the early ones. I used to average 30kph from Mt. Albert to the Mangere bridge on my way home. No way I'd do that now.


Yes, I agree, if it's too long then it certainly gets into the territory of the inconsiderate. I have no problem with slowing for a cyclist for a short time.

I don't have a problem waiting for somebody who has taken any steps avaliable to them to mitigate the danger they are to themselves and how much they affect traffic but there are plenty out there that decided they have the right to use the road so don't need to make allowances for anyone else.

My theory is based on my belief that they're often in more danger on the side of the road than in traffic.


You could well be right for most. For me it was definitely a case of self preservation.

I don't believe they are in more danger on the side of the road. Hitting a car door at even 40kmh would be painful but not likely to be life threatening, being hit from behind by an SUV doing 80 in a fifty zone while checking their radio is just as likely to happen and very likely a death sentence.

All sea travel except ships in channels. Also air travel IIRC.


By virtue of being slower they are less capable of avoiding a collision. Therefore the onus is on the faster vehicle to avoid the collision. Or at least that's how it works at sea.

I think you'll find just about anywhere that a smaller boat would be expected to avoid a larger one given the difficulty in stopping or changing direction for a large vessel. In air travel there is no consideration given to the size of an aircraft in who avoids who, direction dictates specific heights they can fly at and around airports they are all expected to travel the same direction and instructions are given by a third party (Air Traffic Control) to keep things safe. Stopping to give way has drastic consequences for airplanes.

Also, the differences between individuals is what stops life from getting suicidally boring. Respect for other road users right to use the road is all that's called for. I also object to cyclist that impede the flow of traffic more than is necessary. It's just a matter of understanding between operators of different modes of transportation.


That would exclude all trucks from the roads then.


So car drivers should be excluded as well. One person in all that space is pretty inefficient and if they rode a motorcycle they wouldn't hold you up.

By all means, get exercise, buy the $10000 bicycle or whatever you're in to but don't put me in a position where I have to take evasive action to save your life just because you think you're entitled.

Trucks have purpose (we literally could not have an economy without them) and so we must make allowances for them but they are still far more capable of doing speed limits than bicycles, using a bike to commute when you don't need to isn't too dissimilar to if I chose to drive a forklift or a tractor to and from work, technically legal, but I'd have to be a real prick to do it (And I'd at least have COF and Rego)

[Mike.Gayner]

That article is a load of bullshit, I rode a pushbike for years and very rarely had to hold up traffic in any way.

Things have changed since when you rode then, whenever that was.

edit: BTW on the flat I'm somewhere between 30kph and 40kph. If I'm holding up cars for a 300m section, you do the maths on how much time is actually being lost. If you're literally running 45 seconds late for work, then sorry mate, my bad.

[swbarnett]

Hitting a car door at even 40kmh would be painful but not likely to be life threatening,

I've seen this result in a very life-threatening injury.

drive a forklift or a tractor to and from work,

You obviously don't cycle in rural areas then. I pass quite a few tractors over time on my daily commute.

I'm not going to go further into this because we're both starting to split hairs.

It's becoming clear to me, as I've said before, that a lot of people on the road, no matter what they ride or drive, have a sense of entitlement about their chosen mode of transport. Why the hell can't we just respect each other's choices and stop nit picking about a few seconds here and there*. Time is precious, why waste it worrying about it?



^*This is all I'm really talking about.

[Ender EnZed]

I don't believe they are in more danger on the side of the road. Hitting a car door at even 40kmh would be painful but not likely to be life threatening, being hit from behind by an SUV doing 80 in a fifty zone while checking their radio is just as likely to happen and very likely a death sentence.

It all comes down to stakes and odds.

The stakes are pretty high regardless of anything else when you're a soft, squishy thing out amongst a bunch of big, solid things. While not all bad outcomes are equal, no outcome that involves being hit by of the big, solid things is acceptable.

The odds of being hit are commonly perceived (correctly IMHO) to be acceptable when owning the lane. Sure, someone could run you over, but if you've been seen then very very few drivers are going to decide to deliberately do so.

The odds of being hit while being overtaken vary depending on a number of factors, mainly the space available. When they reach a level that an individual cyclist deems to be unacceptable then it's only rational to own the lane in preference.

Very few cyclists are killed while owning the lane. I don't have any numbers but I'd happily wager that it is a tiny fraction of those that die while a bigger vehicle fucks up their overtake.

Note: I haven't ridden a bicycle since ever and don't intend to anytime soon.

[pritch]

I find myself wondering about these kids you guys are mentioning. Out here on the rural rump the kids all go to school with mum in a Remuera tractor. Much safer of course, 'cause she can multi task, she can text and drive at the same time... Well, the kids might be safer but the rest of us aren't.

[R650R]

Things have changed since when you rode then, whenever that was.

edit: BTW on the flat I'm somewhere between 30kph and 40kph. If I'm holding up cars for a 300m section, you do the maths on how much time is actually being lost. If you're literally running 45 seconds late for work, then sorry mate, my bad.

That is exactly how cyclists hold cars and trucks up as it makes it harder to overtake. That's why we've got a politician trying to blank off the fast lane for trucks so cars can go a whole 5-10k faster.
It turns the urban speed limit into a defacto 30-40 zone. The problem is its not just one bike, its five to ten say over a journey to work. The time lost however small is exponentially increased by causing you to miss next traffic light phase etc.
Same as how the cops say a few km/h doesn't cost much time on a car/truck journey. People who travel often for work know the multiplier effect this has on your average speed.
Its why the bus driver is moving away as soon as he gives you your change. He should stay stopped until your seated, maybe even engage in 20-30secs of chit chat but no he doesn't as it all adds up to wreck the timetable.

[Voltaire]

That is exactly how cyclists hold cars and trucks up as it makes it harder to overtake. That's why we've got a politician trying to blank off the fast lane for trucks so cars can go a whole 5-10k faster.
It turns the urban speed limit into a defacto 30-40 zone. The problem is its not just one bike, its five to ten say over a journey to work. The time lost however small is exponentially increased by causing you to miss next traffic light phase etc.
Same as how the cops say a few km/h doesn't cost much time on a car/truck journey. People who travel often for work know the multiplier effect this has on your average speed.
Its why the bus driver is moving away as soon as he gives you your change. He should stay stopped until your seated, maybe even engage in 20-30secs of chit chat but no he doesn't as it all adds up to wreck the timetable.

I pass a few bikes on my commute to work, I slow down, give them a wide berth, not a problem, its not my personal road.
If slowing down a bit makes one late for work, leave a few minutes earlier.
As for trucks on motorways the Germans have the right idea.

[haydes55]

What city did you ride in? I rode in Auckland in the '90s and found myself "holding up traffic" on numerous occasions. In particular while passing parked cars. I would ride out of the range of the doors after I saw a cyclist come off with a punctured lung from one. Also, there were a number of pinch points where the road was only just wide enough for the number of lanes provided. If I stayed to the left I would get passed within an inch. Slightest wobble on my part or misjudgement on theirs and I would've been history. "Holding up traffic" for a short time while you get past these pinch points doesn't even rate on the danger scale in comparison.





Parked car on the left, truck on the right and no room to avoid a car door swung in your face is not what I'd call safe.







I regularly hit 40kph on the flat so I don't think it's too much to ask the traffic to slow a bit for a short time. Afterall, it stops for lights, ped crossings etc.





Because kids have yet to be dragged out of the ignorance of their own mortality.





And yet, as has already been pointed out, in all other modes of transportation the powered vehicle gives way to the unpowered one*.









The only exception I know of is that large ships have right of way over everything else in tight channels.

So, I have a question. When passing parked cars, whose doors may open into your path, why is a driver expected to give way for a cyclist to ride in the middle of the lane?

Yes the car driver is only held up a few seconds, but as said earlier, you aren't the only cyclist on the journey, and cumulatively slow the entire traffic flow.

Is it not possible that a cyclist should give way to vehicles going the speed limit, then overtake the parked car when the path is clear?

If the traffic is too thick that you wouldn't be able to ever find a gap, the traffic wouldn't be going fast enough for you to be holding up traffic.

If the cyclist gave way, it would only take a few seconds out of their journey (that's your saying right)