A question of body position

[Premature Accelerato]

I have a question about body position. Ive done a few trackdays over the last couple of years and my lap times are improving each year. I have no desire to race but I do want to go faster. My current problem is body position during Hard braking. Example. If you are coming to the end of a long straight and are about to hit your braking marker, should you have already got your arse over to the side for the next corner before you hit the brakes. I would imagine it is a bit dodgy to move while braking extremely hard but will the bike stay in line if you have moved your arse over in preperation for the next corner. Ive looked at a number of videos on the subject but most deal with either just braking without a mention of where you should be positioned or they deal with cornering and picking lines but without mention of hard braking and where and when your bum should be. Can I get some opinions on this or is it a case of individual experimentation. Any help or ideas would really be appreciated

[tigertim20]

I always got told Body, brakes, gear gas when I was learning from guys who have raced a bit.
dunno if thats how others do it or not, but works ok for me, but Im no fuckin Rossi either!

[CHOPPA]

Each corner is different

[quickbuck]

Each corner is different

Naturally Choppa is right.... I will just say though, if the corners you are talking about are like hair pins at the end of a fast straight then set up the body BEFORE touching the brakes. Reason is you will tire quickly if you move during.... And you will have to be built like Arnie.... In the 80's.

it will also upset the bike.



What I find with many track day riders is their corner speed is way down on what is actually possible....

It is pretty hard to coach over the internet, so you are actually better to do a course.... I can think of a very good one.... Also body position is also talked about a lot at Pro Rider....


Are you heading to Manfeild on Sunday?






Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[quickbuck]

I always got told Body, brakes, gear, TURN, gas when I was learning from guys who have raced a bit.

dunno if thats how others do it or not, but works ok for me, but Im no fuckin Rossi either!

Ummm, had to fix it for you...





Sent from my Nokia using Tapa talk.

[Shaun Harris]

As choopa said, case by case

Theories are great, but what ever you are the most comfortable doing, will make you safer and faster

[Premature Accelerato]

Thanks people for your input. Unfortunately I cant get to Manfeild this weekend Quickbuck but I try at every opportunity. Yep, corner speed is what I am after. Its getting into the right position for it that I am trying to improve so am questioning other peoples techniques. At present, at the end of long straights, I am sitting centrally on the bike. At my marker I brake like mad, knock off most of my speed then reposition myself to the side of the seat ready for the turn. The consequence seems to be that I have lost too much speed in order to give myself time to repostition. So, I was thinking that if I move over on the bike before I braked, that I could brake later and then hopefully carry more speed through the corners. My natural style is not to hang my arse way off the side in order to get my knees on the deck though I can if i want (cos im getting on in years and have arthritic knees, I might get them down and then not be able to get back up on the bike :-) ) but im attempting more of a when/how weight transfer exercise. Am I right?

[Shaun Harris]

Thanks people for your input. Unfortunately I cant get to Manfeild this weekend Quickbuck but I try at every opportunity. Yep, corner speed is what I am after. Its getting into the right position for it that I am trying to improve so am questioning other peoples techniques. At present, at the end of long straights, I am sitting centrally on the bike. At my marker I brake like mad, knock off most of my speed then reposition myself to the side of the seat ready for the turn. The consequence seems to be that I have lost too much speed in order to give myself time to repostition. So, I was thinking that if I move over on the bike before I braked, that I could brake later and then hopefully carry more speed through the corners. My natural style is not to hang my arse way off the side in order to get my knees on the deck though I can if i want (cos im getting on in years and have arthritic knees, I might get them down and then not be able to get back up on the bike :-) ) but im attempting more of a when/how weight transfer exercise. Am I right?

Me personally, they way you described your current style is the way I would choose to do it, it is a matter of becoming exterelly adaptable to changes and being smooth and using your legs to stand up and move your arse and lower yourself back down again smoothly and calmly.

[quickbuck]

Thanks people for your input. Unfortunately I cant get to Manfeild this weekend Quickbuck but I try at every opportunity. Yep, corner speed is what I am after. Its getting into the right position for it that I am trying to improve so am questioning other peoples techniques. At present, at the end of long straights, I am sitting centrally on the bike. At my marker I brake like mad, knock off most of my speed then reposition myself to the side of the seat ready for the turn. The consequence seems to be that I have lost too much speed in order to give myself time to repostition. So, I was thinking that if I move over on the bike before I braked, that I could brake later and then hopefully carry more speed through the corners. My natural style is not to hang my arse way off the side in order to get my knees on the deck though I can if i want (cos im getting on in years and have arthritic knees, I might get them down and then not be able to get back up on the bike :-) ) but im attempting more of a when/how weight transfer exercise. Am I right?

hmm,
Sounds like you know what you need to do... And to me it sounds like you are more my size than Shauns.
Sorry if I got that wrong, but I am the heaviest rider in 250 Production.. tipping 105kg fully kitted...

Anyhow what I would suggest is to find your Turn point first. (Forget about the brakes).
Then work back from there....
So then you will establist an Off Brakes point.
Then from that you will work out your Start Brake point (Of course this depends on HEAPS! Most of all your ability to brake).
Then you decise with the force that is generated where you actually move your butt.
Contary to what I have seen, you do not have to hang youre whole body off your outside calf mussle.
I can only move until the middle of my butt is on the edge of the seat..... (We all know where that is, so a good place to start).
As I said, I am not little. Any more and my poor little 250 gets really upset.

The last thing you want to be doing is getting off the brakes and then changing all the bikes geometery before/ as you turn the bike into the corner....

I have seen this:
Brake hard....
Release Brakes,
Move body
Accelerate to corner
Turn motorcycle
Freak out
Shut throttle
Accelerate hard (because they thought they were going too slow)
Stand bike up and head to next corner....

Yup, they almost crashed at least 3 times in that one corner!!!
And if it was wet.. .well, I bet you they don't like riding in the wet because the bike handles funny.......

REMEMBER:
I am only thinking on ONE corner of 7 at Manfeild in that whole text...

As for knee down.. It only causes Friction, and that slows you down.....

[quickbuck]

Me personally, they way you described your current style is the way I would choose to do it, it is a matter of becoming exterelly adaptable to changes and being smooth and using your legs to stand up and move your arse and lower yourself back down again smoothly and calmly.

Oh yeah...
Shaun knows a thing or two as well...
As we say to students, "don't be a Plonker".

[wharfy]

As for knee down.. It only causes Friction, and that slows you down.....

Yeah but it looks cool and thats more important
Oh I'm on the lookout for a pair of 500mm clipon bars so I can get my elbow down

[Dogboy900]

Yeah but it looks cool and thats more important
Oh I'm on the lookout for a pair of 500mm clipon bars so I can get my elbow down

That made me laugh! Its ALL about how you look!

Have to say I do love getting my knee down makes me laugh every time, and realistically I ride bikes to put a smile on my dial

In response to the OP I would have thought it is easier to brace yourself under hard braking while central on the bike. Can't say I am that fast on the track though so just my thoughts on it.

[tbs]

I've spent a fair bit of time watching Simon Crafar's first MotoVudu video, and he does address that exact topic. Some of the things he says actually appear to me to be counter to what the Keith Code school of thought teaches, but so far, I feel more comfortable using Simon's methods.

His recommendation for hard braking is to move your lower body first, and let your nuts slide up against the tank, so you're not wasting energy trying to hold yourself back on the seat. Then he holds his upper body upright with his arms while braking as late and hard as possible and downshifts so he carries lots of revs into the turn. When he gets to his brake release point he simultaneously and smoothly releases the brake and leans his upper body into his cornering position. The whole idea being to shed as much speed as possible while relatively upright, and then avoid de-stablizing the bike on corner entry. He claims the bike will turn the best on a closed throttle at high rpm. When he does crack the throttle, he just holds it on to maintain corner speed, before standing the bike up and wrenching it on full.

I had always tended to stay centered on the bike and push myself back on the seat, and then when I was done with the hard braking I would shift my body while still trail braking. I am much more comfortable and smooth since I adopted Simon's method.

His mantra that he repeats over and over, is that you can make the most time on a track by making all the straights as long as possible and getting on full gas as early as possible. It seems like he will sacrifice a bit of mid corner speed to keep the bike upright for a few more meters, and then get it turned while using a lot of engine braking on a closed throttle, before standing it up as soon as he can and get on full gas. Following this advice put me in different parts of the track than a lot of riders at my last track day, especially ones who use the CCS late apex, crack the throttle and keep rolling it on technique.


Any of you experienced guys familiar with Simon Crafar's teaching and care to comment? Pros and cons?

[Shaun Harris]

I've spent a fair bit of time watching Simon Crafar's first MotoVudu video, and he does address that exact topic. Some of the things he says actually appear to me to be counter to what the Keith Code school of thought teaches, but so far, I feel more comfortable using Simon's methods.

His recommendation for hard braking is to move your lower body first, and let your nuts slide up against the tank, so you're not wasting energy trying to hold yourself back on the seat. Then he holds his upper body upright with his arms while braking as late and hard as possible and downshifts so he carries lots of revs into the turn. When he gets to his brake release point he simultaneously and smoothly releases the brake and leans his upper body into his cornering position. The whole idea being to shed as much speed as possible while relatively upright, and then avoid de-stablizing the bike on corner entry. He claims the bike will turn the best on a closed throttle at high rpm. When he does crack the throttle, he just holds it on to maintain corner speed, before standing the bike up and wrenching it on full.

I had always tended to stay centered on the bike and push myself back on the seat, and then when I was done with the hard braking I would shift my body while still trail braking. I am much more comfortable and smooth since I adopted Simon's method.

His mantra that he repeats over and over, is that you can make the most time on a track by making all the straights as long as possible and getting on full gas as early as possible. It seems like he will sacrifice a bit of mid corner speed to keep the bike upright for a few more meters, and then get it turned while using a lot of engine braking on a closed throttle, before standing it up as soon as he can and get on full gas. Following this advice put me in different parts of the track than a lot of riders at my last track day, especially ones who use the CCS late apex, crack the throttle and keep rolling it on technique.


Any of you experienced guys familiar with Simon Crafar's teaching and care to comment? Pros and cons?

Keith code is only a writer ( Good 1 but) and all the people teaching under the name of kc schools are taught how to teach hie techniques, SIMON is a GP500 race WINNER Enough said I think. The proof is in the pudding man.

[Premature Accelerato]

TBS. I also have a copy of Simons video and know that section of the video you are talking about but for the life of me, I dont hear mention of when you should actually shift your butt over. On most sections where there are no straights of appreciable length, I do as he says and have my butt to one side, even when braking, but as I have been asking, its at the end of long straights where you brake hard that i have been of two minds what to do about weight transfer. I might have a go at moving before I brake and slowly build up speed and braking effort to see what works. Practice practice practice. Re Simons video, I have found it reasonably educational.