The cheater MX85 argument. I might be changing my mind.

**F5 Dave** · 22nd May 2014, 08:10

If I was 60kg my starts would be better too.

**Sketchy_Racer** · 22nd May 2014, 08:42

Are you really comparing a fxr150 power curve to a 85? What a bloody joke!

Seriously offer some reasoned input to this discussion not just "I got beat by a kid on an 80 so they are clearly too fast"

Next we're going to have people saying they will quit buckets if 85s come in, like a disgruntled 12yo.

As Mike put it earlier the non competition rule is out dated and redundant.

**Drew** · 22nd May 2014, 10:32

Let's have a look from a different angle.

Back in the day, there was an enormous gap between race engines and road bikes. At the most basic level, like water cooling and shit. It was not cost effective to share very much of the technology between the disciplines. These days it is, and commuter bikes share the same basic designs. FXR is a four valve head, RG150 is a great start point for making a stupidly fast 150.

Alas, there aren't road bikes made of the 2 stroke variety that fit bucket cc limitations. So since there's no difference in potential IF there were road bikes, why not open an avenue that replicates a progression that would have happened if the tree huggers didn't change the course?

**cotswold** · 22nd May 2014, 11:23

Originally Posted by mr bucketracer

look a the first lap of the gp on my onboard . up the hill part of the track i'm down in the revs the rest i'm riding like a 2 stroke anyway so don't know what the diffients is? ( both 100 and 85 just pull away easy ) have a look

Um and your bike and rider combined weight is............?
Nats combined would be no more than 130kg (if that)

Power to weight ratio, there is a very good reason (most) of the top small bike riders are tiny.

**Grumph** · 22nd May 2014, 11:47

Originally Posted by Drew

Let's have a look from a different angle.

Back in the day, there was an enormous gap between race engines and road bikes. At the most basic level, like water cooling and shit. It was not cost effective to share very much of the technology between the disciplines. These days it is, and commuter bikes share the same basic designs. FXR is a four valve head, RG150 is a great start point for making a stupidly fast 150.

Alas, there aren't road bikes made of the 2 stroke variety that fit bucket cc limitations. So since there's no difference in potential IF there were road bikes, why not open an avenue that replicates a progression that would have happened if the tree huggers didn't change the course?

The boy makes a good point.......two stroke development for the road was stopped dead by the greenies while fourstrokes carried on with technology transfers from the GP wars.

**jasonu** · 22nd May 2014, 12:45

Originally Posted by Skunk

OK, water cooled 125cc with open carbs.

If it ain't smokin' - it's broken.

Then some might want 150 air cooled 2T with 28 carb. Others might want 175cc 4t. The 85cc MX crowd might want over bore to 100cc. Where would it end?
There is nout all wrong with the rules as is.

**seymour14** · 22nd May 2014, 13:05

Originally Posted by jasonu

Then some might want 150 air cooled 2T with 28 carb. Others might want 175cc 4t. The 85cc MX crowd might want over bore to 100cc. Where would it end?
There is nout all wrong with the rules as is.

That would be my point too, and once Pandora's box is opened, there will be no shutting it again. To me that is a 30+ year old founding rule flushed down the toilet.

We are bringing a new, legal two stroke to the competition hopefully sometime next year, something a little different. To say there is little choice is not right at all, and in fact, our team sees the big advantage two strokes have over the four, or we wouldn't be trying this.

**Drew** · 22nd May 2014, 13:08

Originally Posted by Grumph

The boy makes...

???

36 today actually y'old bugger!

**Drew** · 22nd May 2014, 13:10

Originally Posted by seymour14

That would be my point too, and once Pandora's box is opened, there will be no shutting it again. To me that is a 30+ year old founding rule flushed down the toilet.

We are bringing a new, legal two stroke to the competition hopefully sometime next year, something a little different. To say there is little choice is not right at all, and in fact, our team sees the big advantage two strokes have over the four, or we wouldn't be trying this.

Bollocks!

That would be why there needs to be some rules submitted for change/addition. To allow some things, and not others.

**Yow Ling** · 22nd May 2014, 13:23

Originally Posted by jasonu

There is nout all wrong with the rules as is.

Yes there is. What is a competition part and where is the crossover between a performance part and a competition part.
Is a prototype part a competition part ? Is an exact copy of a competition part a competition part or a one off.

You can 3D print a sandcore for a barrel with any porting you like , but if it isn't made by a recognised competition bike maker is it a competition part.

You can build an exact copy of any engine and its legal !

**seymour14** · 22nd May 2014, 13:30

Originally Posted by Yow Ling

Yes there is. What is a competition part and where is the crossover between a performance part and a competition part.
Is a prototype part a competition part ? Is an exact copy of a competition part a competition part or a one off.

You can 3D print a sandcore for a barrel with any prorting you like , but if it isn't made by a recognised competition bike maker is it a competition part.

You can build an exact copy of any engine and its legal !

And who honestly can afford that? The reason we build stuff is because it is cheaper for us to build then to buy, our time is what is lost. if someone can make an exact copy of a competition part, then good for them, if it blows up, they are back to doing it again. They may stumble on something even better in the way of a design, that's exciting.

Buying stuff off the shelf is everything that is wrong with engineering these days, our kids are brimming with knowledge, but not a lick of practical engineering common sense.

And that is something buckets still has at the moment, the chance to do something different. If their is a cheap alternative, who will honestly put in huge hours just to come out even with an off the shelf answer.

**Sketchy_Racer** · 22nd May 2014, 15:05

Originally Posted by seymour14

And who honestly can afford that? The reason we build stuff is because it is cheaper for us to build then to buy, our time is what is lost. if someone can make an exact copy of a competition part, then good for them, if it blows up, they are back to doing it again. They may stumble on something even better in the way of a design, that's exciting.

Buying stuff off the shelf is everything that is wrong with engineering these days, our kids are brimming with knowledge, but not a lick of practical engineering common sense.

And that is something buckets still has at the moment, the chance to do something different. If their is a cheap alternative, who will honestly put in huge hours just to come out even with an off the shelf answer.

I can't help but feel that you are only looking from your perspective here. Sure it is "cheaper" and "easier" for you guys to build your motors, but look at the equipment that you have at your disposal... Put a price tag on that and tell average joe punter that is how you must build a motor. Not everyone is an engineer or wants to be an engineer and fair enough, some people just want a bike to go race.

and to be honest I can't help but laugh a little at the preaching of "built not bought" yet your own team offers a service for people to literally buy HP???

The rule changes being considered here will have no effect on your ability or freedom to make what ever you feel it will just offer those who like two strokes to start at an even playing field without having to go read 900 pages of ESE to learn how to tune a 2T.

Again non of the points you have put up are actual reasons against having the MX85s allowed apart from the "It's been this way for 30 years" (which it hasn't since FXR150s and the CC rule opened up for 4Ts)
Personally I hate this attitude with a pure passion, it is the attitude that drove buckets into the ground last time and it will do it again.

Innovate or Die

**Mental Trousers** · 22nd May 2014, 15:06

Originally Posted by Grumph

Originally Posted by Drew

Let's have a look from a different angle.

Back in the day, there was an enormous gap between race engines and road bikes. At the most basic level, like water cooling and shit. It was not cost effective to share very much of the technology between the disciplines. These days it is, and commuter bikes share the same basic designs. FXR is a four valve head, RG150 is a great start point for making a stupidly fast 150.

Alas, there aren't road bikes made of the 2 stroke variety that fit bucket cc limitations. So since there's no difference in potential IF there were road bikes, why not open an avenue that replicates a progression that would have happened if the tree huggers didn't change the course?

The boy makes a good point.......two stroke development for the road was stopped dead by the greenies while fourstrokes carried on with technology transfers from the GP wars.

Yup .

**mr bucketracer** · 22nd May 2014, 15:23

Originally Posted by Sketchy_Racer

Are you really comparing a fxr150 power curve to a 85? What a bloody joke!

Seriously offer some reasoned input to this discussion not just "I got beat by a kid on an 80 so they are clearly too fast"

Next we're going to have people saying they will quit buckets if 85s come in, like a disgruntled 12yo.

As Mike put it earlier the non competition rule is out dated and redundant.

you guys said about power curve's , to me it means nothin , just ride the dam thing , so you have been taking to brent have you

**mr bucketracer** · 22nd May 2014, 15:29

Originally Posted by Sketchy_Racer

I can't help but feel that you are only looking from your perspective here. Sure it is "cheaper" and "easier" for you guys to build your motors, but look at the equipment that you have at your disposal... Put a price tag on that and tell average joe punter that is how you must build a motor. Not everyone is an engineer or wants to be an engineer and fair enough, some people just want a bike to go race.

and to be honest I can't help but laugh a little at the preaching of "built not bought" yet your own team offers a service for people to literally buy HP???

The rule changes being considered here will have no effect on your ability or freedom to make what ever you feel it will just offer those who like two strokes to start at an even playing field without having to go read 900 pages of ESE to learn how to tune a 2T.

Again non of the points you have put up are actual reasons against having the MX85s allowed apart from the "It's been this way for 30 years" (which it hasn't since FXR150s and the CC rule opened up for 4Ts)
Personally I hate this attitude with a pure passion, it is the attitude that drove buckets into the ground last time and it will do it again.

Innovate or Die

think you will find it was a lack of tracks that drove it into the ground