The cheater MX85 argument. I might be changing my mind.

[kel]

once Pandora's box is opened, there will be no shutting it again.

Thats not so bad. If you remember your Greek mythology, the one thing left in Pandoras box was hope ...

[kel]

Let's have a look from a different angle.

Back in the day, there was an enormous gap between race engines and road bikes. At the most basic level, like water cooling and shit. It was not cost effective to share very much of the technology between the disciplines. These days it is, and commuter bikes share the same basic designs. FXR is a four valve head, RG150 is a great start point for making a stupidly fast 150.

Alas, there aren't road bikes made of the 2 stroke variety that fit bucket cc limitations. So since there's no difference in potential IF there were road bikes, why not open an avenue that replicates a progression that would have happened if the tree huggers didn't change the course?

A very well thought out post (tree hugger part aside)

[FastFred]

The rule changes being considered here will have no effect on your ability or freedom to make what ever you feel it will just offer those who like two strokes to start at an even playing field without having to go read 900 pages of ESE to learn how to tune a 2T.

I guess its fair enough that people who don't want to even make the effort to read the team ESE thread about tuning 2T's should be able to start on an even playing field with them.



I mean after years of effort why should ESE or any other tuners through their own efforts have an advantage over johnny lazy or noddy no brains or daddy fat wallet.

(incidentally the ESE thread is becoming one of the best sources in the world about tuning your 2T)

[seymour14]

I can't help but feel that you are only looking from your perspective here. Sure it is "cheaper" and "easier" for you guys to build your motors, but look at the equipment that you have at your disposal... Put a price tag on that and tell average joe punter that is how you must build a motor. Not everyone is an engineer or wants to be an engineer and fair enough, some people just want a bike to go race.

and to be honest I can't help but laugh a little at the preaching of "built not bought" yet your own team offers a service for people to literally buy HP???

The rule changes being considered here will have no effect on your ability or freedom to make what ever you feel it will just offer those who like two strokes to start at an even playing field without having to go read 900 pages of ESE to learn how to tune a 2T.

Again non of the points you have put up are actual reasons against having the MX85s allowed apart from the "It's been this way for 30 years" (which it hasn't since FXR150s and the CC rule opened up for 4Ts)
Personally I hate this attitude with a pure passion, it is the attitude that drove buckets into the ground last time and it will do it again.

Innovate or Die

Point one- You can still race without the engineering talent to build a bike, just buy one off Trademe.

Point Two- We offer our services, sod all people use them because of cost, that's fine, still making the offer. I don't care about doing a whole bunch of work for people after my work week is done, but I will if someone is keen for the goods. It's Buckets, that's what we do.

Point three- As Scott pointed out, still TF motors built today, just like FXR's.

Point four- Whole reason for Buckets, and the Golden Rule! Why should we change it on your whim? I hate your reasons with a pure passion too! Buckets is quietly making a comeback, F4 is good, F5 is making a resurgence, Sidecars are back after an almost 10 year lay off. If you like two strokes, instead of trying to change the Golden rule, get yourself in F5 and give our good mate Dave some more competition, and people will be glad to see you in a class that needs a few more numbers.

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

[FastFred]

We offer our services, sod all people use them because of cost, that's fine, still making the offer.

And Team ESE offer knowledge by posting everything they do, sod all people make the effort to read it, why should they when they can see a simple rule change will allow them to "Level the Playing Field".....

[mr bucketracer]

And Team ESE offer knowledge by posting everything they do, sod all people make the effort to read it, why should they when they can see a simple rule change will allow them to "Level the Playing Field".....

Thanks for you guys to put time in to post stuff , you would hate to see the tf 100 cylinders i have lieing around buggered working out how to make them go fast.. not cheap back then

[F5 Dave]

I guess its fair enough that people who don't want to even make the effort to read the team ESE thread about tuning 2T's should be able to start on an even playing field with them.



I mean after years of effort why should ESE or any other tuners have an advantage over johnny lazy or noddy no brains or daddy fat wallet.

(incidentally the ESE thread is becoming one of the best sources in the world about tuning your 2T)

In stock form an MX85 with sub 20hp & a peaky spread isn't going to bother a 30 or even 25hp good spread engine like you've been making. Depending on the rider of course. get Av's bike up & running & let Nat out on it & see if he can break the mtWgtn record again perhaps?

[seymour14]

Thanks for you guys to put time in to post stuff , you would hate to see the tf 100 cylinders i have lieing around buggered working out how to make them go fast.. not cheap back then

Which leads me to another point, why are there not a constant stream of new guys coming into buckets with new TF motors, answer- they probably would like a bit of four stroke reliability while they learn the game, two strokes are more for the purists. Two strokes may be something to aspire to perhaps! Not a bad thing.

I feel for you guys for the disparity, times have changed. Don't think changing the rules is going to get a flood of new people in though. If the new engine was introduced, there is still all the other costs involved, and that for 99% of people is the game changer anyway. Having the new TF motors around with little to no one using them sort of proves this point.

[steamroller]

Are you really comparing a fxr150 power curve to a 85? What a bloody joke!

Seriously offer some reasoned input to this discussion not just "I got beat by a kid on an 80 so they are clearly too fast"

Next we're going to have people saying they will quit buckets if 85s come in, like a disgruntled 12yo.

As Mike put it earlier the non competition rule is out dated and redundant.

ok so if the power curve of a 150 to a 85 are overlapped and are identical same rpm ever thing what is the difference whats the joke?

[steamroller]

In stock form an MX85 with sub 20hp & a peaky spread isn't going to bother a 30 or even 25hp good spread engine like you've been making. Depending on the rider of course. get Av's bike up & running & let Nat out on it & see if he can break the mtWgtn record again perhaps?

so you only want them in stock form yes or no

[Sketchy_Racer]

ok so if the power curve of a 150 to a 85 are overlapped and are identical same rpm ever thing what is the difference whats the joke?

Because they never will be, that simple.

Really, do you really think a 85cc two stroke will have the same power curve as a 150cc four stroke at the same peak HP??? Have you riden a small capacity 2T? There's a reason Daves 50cc lives with blue clutch plates and it's not because he love peaky power, its the by product of getting large peak HP out of little capacity motors.

[Sketchy_Racer]

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Yeah but it doesn't mean you shouldn't maintain it.



Look all arguments aside, we all want the best for the sport and like anything in life we all have our opinions. I'm worried now that it is getting too personal and I don't want it turning into a storm in teacup.

Next opportunity a submission will be put forward to MNZ for a rule change, and it will be simply up to them to decide if it get accepted or not.

Until then the 85 will float about in Welly and hopfully my supercharger bike will turn up to a track soon

[F5 Dave]

so you only want them in stock form yes or no

Read the rest of the thread! I don't know. I'm not pushing for one way or the other yet. My thoughts are if we let them in in Stock or some restrictions they would be at a disadvantage to the top bikes, but a good starting point - probably equivilent to an FXR club bike with carb & hacky pipe. We might then decide whether to unleash them.

So no, I won't & can't answer yes or no.

[steamroller]

Read the rest of the thread! I don't know. I'm not pushing for one way or the other yet. My thoughts are if we let them in in Stock or some restrictions they would be at a disadvantage to the top bikes, but a good starting point - probably equivilent to an FXR club bike with carb & hacky pipe. We might then decide whether to unleash them.

So no, I won't & can't answer yes or no.

stock 85 i think is fine

[F5 Dave]

Which leads me to another point, why are there not a constant stream of new guys coming into buckets with new TF motors, answer- they probably would like a bit of four stroke reliability while they learn the game, two strokes are more for the purists. Two strokes may be something to aspire to perhaps! Not a bad thing.

I feel for you guys for the disparity, times have changed. Don't think changing the rules is going to get a flood of new people in though. If the new engine was introduced, there is still all the other costs involved, and that for 99% of people is the game changer anyway. Having the new TF motors around with little to no one using them sort of proves this point.

Ahh c'mon. Why would anyone buy a new TF unless you wanted it for its intended purpose to rape sheep in the top paddock or whatever it is is that they are supposed to be for?