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Thread: The cheater MX85 argument. I might be changing my mind.

  1. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    To complete the picture it might be good to mention that up our way in A grade Nats 80-85cc Package is being pretty dominant.
    10 characters

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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Attachment 297383

    Here we have a water cooled 85cc (Derbi??) followed by three air cooled 2Ts, a 125cc Kawasaki farm bike, a 125cc Suzuki farm bike and a 100cc Honda commuter bike engine, all consistent front runners. The hot FXR's were all runnerups.
    From todays racing at Mt Wellington, and there are still plenty of Suzuki farm bike engines available and MB100 barrels can be brought new for 20 or so dollars over the internet(for exact details check with Speedpro).

  3. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by quallman1234 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    To complete the picture it might be good to mention that up our way in A grade Nats 80-85cc Package is being pretty dominant.
    10 characters
    Thanks for fixing that for me.

    True, its always the package and given a good 85cc platform to start with, I expect any half decent rider could cobble something pretty competitive together without having to go to to much trouble engine wise.

  4. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    To complete the picture it might be good to mention that up our way in A grade Nats 80-85cc bike is being pretty dominant.
    Pity he isn't on an mx85 or you might have had some sort of point.
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  5. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    From todays racing at Mt Wellington, and there are still plenty of Suzuki farm bike engines available and MB100 barrels can be brought new for 20 or so dollars over the internet(for exact details check with Speedpro).
    Yeah, we've yet to actually see those barrels materialise and $20 wasn't even close.
    I've been told. Dreaming`s free.
    Think I'll go, back to sleep.
    Everybody listen, voices in my head
    Everybody listen, do yours say, what mine says?

  6. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    Pity he isn't on an mx85 or you might have had some sort of point.
    I am not sure what your point is but Nat demonstrates the point that 80-85cc can be very useful and I would be surprised that anybody who put their mind to it could not easily get similar good power and power spread like Nats from a MX85.

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    If by some remote chance someone actually puts in a remit for rule change who is it that will actually make the decision either yes or no? Would that person or persons have any real knowledge about the Bucket class? Would there be a debate or would the remit include letters for and against from those involved?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonu View Post
    If by some remote chance someone actually puts in a remit for rule change who is it that will actually make the decision either yes or no? Would that person or persons have any real knowledge about the Bucket class? Would there be a debate or would the remit include letters for and against from those involved?
    here is the process, It wont take a big group of people to get any new rule put through, because nobody stands for or against much.

    http://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-so...t.pdf?sfvrsn=2
    My neighbours diary says I have boundary issues

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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    I am not sure what your point is but Nat demonstrates the point that 80-85cc can be very useful and I would be surprised that anybody who put their mind to it could not easily get similar good power and spread from a MX85.
    So,

    Ive been following this thread from the outset and have found it quite interesting that there hasn't been the usual mass resistance to the idea of Competition based engines,BUT the post that stands out to me the most,Is Henks one where he raises the point "Is it really necessary,Are the fields struggling for numbers?" From what Ive read there is no need to bolster numbers and in fact there will be some who walk away if these machines are allowed entry,The post Ive quoted bothers me the most though as it appears to imply that maybe its not such a great idea as one of these machines may actually win,I mean lets be honest here,Its hardly a level playing field anyway,How many others have the resources that GPR or ESE have to build and develop their machinery?Another factor to be taken into consideration would be the fact,You can't beat cubic capacity,Therefore a 100cc watercooled engine tuned to its capacity should,In theory make more usable power than an 85 in the same state of tune,The whole idea definitely holds merit,But it certainly needs a lot more discussion,Interestingly while I was typing this out Jimmy Steadman rang,He seemed to be quite keen on the idea.

  10. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    So,

    Ive been following this thread from the outset and have found it quite interesting that there hasn't been the usual mass resistance to the idea of Competition based engines,BUT the post that stands out to me the most,Is Henks one where he raises the point "Is it really necessary,Are the fields struggling for numbers?" From what Ive read there is no need to bolster numbers and in fact there will be some who walk away if these machines are allowed entry,The post Ive quoted bothers me the most though as it appears to imply that maybe its not such a great idea as one of these machines may actually win,I mean lets be honest here,Its hardly a level playing field anyway,How many others have the resources that GPR or ESE have to build and develop their machinery?Another factor to be taken into consideration would be the fact,You can't beat cubic capacity,Therefore a 100cc watercooled engine tuned to its capacity should,In theory make more usable power than an 85 in the same state of tune,The whole idea definitely holds merit,But it certainly needs a lot more discussion,Interestingly while I was typing this out Jimmy Steadman rang,He seemed to be quite keen on the idea.
    Interesting.

    R.E. The cubes,

    Thinking as I type...


    As you already know,

    Older 100's are all old tech commuters, so, while they can make great power they have to do it with things like huge single exhaust ports.
    Also transfer porting tends to be pretty poo, further compromising the level of tune available.

    MX stuff is better and designed for a competition state of tune, better and more transfers, Inlets, Bridged exhausts, good cooling etc...

    A modern road based engine, like Brent's for instance, has the potential to give the goodness of the modern tech with 100cc but is quite an undertaking compared to hotting up an old 100. Additionally it's likely to be quite a bit heavier, maybe?

    If anything like this did get through I'd be very keen to get a cut off year in place to stop people buying an new KTM, it may not even help them win but it makes the sport look a lot more expensive, cheap is our selling point.


    Perhaps we should seek a variety of Australian Opinions?
    Both on this and their larger Aircooled 2 Valve 4 Strokes.
    Heinz Varieties

  11. #641
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    Just a few thoughts that may or may not help??
    I read to page 5 and skipped to Last page but as an old karter who ran race prepared 125's you can get damn good HP out of a smoker if you know what your doing.

    So the rule restriction will be very important in your sport!!

    Pipe, carb size and ignition being foremost!! Make clutches and baskets mandatory!

    A performance mx kart engine 15 YEARS ago!!

    Get rid of the clutch assembly completely who needs that drag on the crank aye!
    We made Dog clutches for road racing where you had to be able to disengage for safety purposes.
    Send the crankcase and barrel for porting to Robert Taylor to work his magic so you had torque based engine. (pretty sure he doesn't karts anymore??).
    Lighten the crank. Align and balance the Crank and crankcases.
    Head job: Squish, compression etc.
    Modify the power valve and add boost ports
    Wobbly pipe or make your own we did. But you can now download heaps of designs, including flat cutting templates, to make them yourself now)
    Methanol
    Motoplat ignition
    Flat slide carb with custom made adjustable power jet in the back of it.

    Then you add a MyChron and a laptop so you can get track sectioned maps, EGT and CHT to tune for gearing and HP.
    Blow up a few engines to find where compression Vs Heat vs reliability vs HP comes in and your away.

    Thats a 42 HP kart engine 15 years ago not sure how much you'd take off the that to do that to an 85cc??
    But I've had a ride or two on an 85 mx bike and they are scary fast prob producing as much as a Standard 15 year old watercooled 125 was then?
    I dunno been out for to long?

    OK so that's it in brief!!

    BAN some/all of the above (as it will creep in) and your getting somewhere!

    Don't get me wrong I'm a 2stroke man though and through!
    The adjustable, combined, boost port, power valve set up on my Ktm200 is a frekin brilliant and simple piece of engineering!
    Smokers yes! Nothing cheaper to maintain and its do it yourself, love to see them in your sport.


    Just thought Id share some past knowledge of may lie ahead in the 2smoke arena to help your sport!
    On a Motorcycle you're penetrating distance, right along with the machine!! In a car you're just a spectator, the windshields like a TV!!

    'Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out! Shouting, ' Holy sh!t... What a Ride!! '

  12. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    I am not sure what your point is but Nat demonstrates the point that 80-85cc can be very useful and I would be surprised that anybody who put their mind to it could not easily get similar good power and power spread like Nats from a MX85.
    Ive been following this thread from the outset and have found it quite interesting that there hasn't been the usual mass resistance to the idea of Competition based engines,BUT the post that stands out to me the most, Is Henks one where he raises the point "Is it really necessary,Are the fields struggling for numbers?" From what Ive read there is no need to bolster numbers.

    The post Ive quoted bothers me the most though as it appears to imply that maybe its not such a great idea as one of these machines may actually win, I mean lets be honest here,Its hardly a level playing field anyway, How many others have the resources that GPR or ESE have to build and develop their machinery?
    True Team ESE is blessed with a little old lathe, a drill press, dyno, a bunch of hand tools and a willingness to put in an enormous amount of work learning the craft. GPR offer their skills as a service and ESE post everything they do, in part so others don't have to spend as long in the wilderness as ESE has.

    Personally I don't care one way or the other about MX85's, as Henk said, they are not needed to bolster the numbers, but if they came in, I would only be disappointed if people tried to put all sorts of restrictions on them.

    Because Buckets is openly about developing "the package" you have, the best you can, the package, is rider-engine-handling and knowledge of the craft. I think if MX85's came in then they should only be restricted by capacity with everything else about them open.

    You could do very well with one, and to pretend otherwise is dishonest. You could also do very well with a currently legal 100 or 125 or 150 whatever you choose to put the effort into. True, resources help, but a lack of willingness to overcome or apply oneself or more importantly to learn is more limiting than a lack of resources.

    And if we are looking at a fundamental change to the rules then maybe we should discuss all aspects of the rules and take the opportunity to give them a good looking over.

    My only gripe would be if people who don't wan't to make the effort are promoting MX85' as an easy way to level the playing field somewhat with the other front runners who have put the hard yards in with the old style commuter or farm bike engines that are currently legal and still available but admittedly in dwindling variety.

  13. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    True Team ESE is blessed with a little old lathe, a drill press, dyno, a bunch of hand tools and a willingness to put in an enormous amount of work learning the craft. GPR offer their skills as a service and ESE post everything they do, in part so others don't have to spend as long in the wilderness as ESE has.

    Personally I don't care one way or the other about MX85's, as Henk said, they are not needed to bolster the numbers, I would only be disappointed if people tried to put all sorts of restrictions on them.

    Because Buckets is openly about developing "the package" you have the best you can, the package, is rider-engine-handling and knowledge of the craft. I think if MX85's came in then they should only be restricted by capacity with everything else about them open.

    You could do very well with one, and to pretend otherwise is dishonest. You could also do very well with a currently legal 100 or 125 or 150 whatever you choose to put the effort into.

    And if we are looking at a fundamental change to the rules then maybe we should discuss all aspects of the rules and take the opportunity to give them a good looking over.

    My only gripe would be if people who don't wan't to make the effort are promoting MX85' as an easy way for themselves to level the playing field somewhat with the other front runners who have put the hard yards in with the old style commuter or farm bike engines.
    Yea,

    Agree completely with the last paragraph,Although I doubt sketchy would fall into that bracket,The point I was trying to make is,What about those who simply don't have the resources etc required,It could be an easy way in for them,Re the rulebook,Goodluck with that,It's an embarrasment to the sport,The best advice I could give you is for a group of the more experienced amongst you reformulate them and when your satisfied you have them right,Submit them to Greg to have them ratified,Its the ONLY way you'll get them sorted currently.

  14. #644
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    Haven't had time yet to get through all 43 pages but has anyone yet mentioned what I feel the best argument *for* allowing an MX 85 rule (something choppa's been banging on about for years) and that's the opportunity to lure kids over from Junior MX to try a different code. Makes pretty good sense to me.
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  15. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    What about those who simply don't have the resources etc required.
    It might only be Buckets but it is still a competitive sport and like all sports it requires some resource to participate in.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is where I started and with some very limited hand tools.

    Sure you can't expect to be a winner straight off but it is a starting point that is still pretty much open to anybody.

    It was years before I managed 20 hp but I learnt a lot along the way, like how to make the best of whatever I could scrounge beg borrow or steal in what I imagine is the traditional Bucketeer way.

    Maybe this is the time to talk about what Buckets should mean as a race class.

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