The cheater MX85 argument. I might be changing my mind.

[Kickaha]

Haven't had time yet to get through all 43 pages but has anyone yet mentioned what I feel the best argument *for* allowing an MX 85 rule (something choppa's been banging on about for years) and that's the opportunity to lure kids over from Junior MX to try a different code. Makes pretty good sense to me.

Choppa and Sketchy have been the only people really pushing it and that's just because they're the guys who want to run those motors it's got bugger all to do with luring kids over to try a different code

[Bert]

Choppa and Sketchy have been the only people really pushing it and that's just because they're the guys who want to run those motors it's got bugger all to do with luring kids over to try a different code

I should say out...
But I'm on the list of supporters of trying something different (without adverse effects to the current state of the class) And have been involved in the sport for a reasonable length of time (1994)... And seen it's ups and downs.
And I do have a roll to luring kids (read newbies) across from different codes (all be it bigger bikes); but regularly suggest that the newbies (to bigger bikes) to go bucket racing to improve race craft skills... This is the real opportunity this class offers, skill development and time on bike racing.

I have no agenda as I've already got some cool F4 machines, and no way would I likely head down down the 85cc path (and I can't ride what I've got anyway, just making up numbers).

But, as I see it, the current rules support the ethos of the class (the only true formula racing left in NZ). I certainly do not want to destroy this.
I do see the 85cc as a way to jump in to the class with a competitive engine (reducing the required level of engineering and understanding of performance tuning): to give a leg up and allow for focus on racing rather than engineering... This is my primary driver (the game has changed and you need 16+ Hp to be even out near the front of Bgrade). Gone of the days of turning up with a farm engine (ported and piped to Bell) and not being lapped in the lower class, this could very well be a turnoff to the Y,Z gens... But there are already plenty of options within the current rules and help (even if they don't look sexy to the new generation)...

But if the idea/concept results in the "it's not fair" and pursuing rules arm race (modifications within the current rules) then there is not benefit at all in allowing 85 in.

In saying this however There are reasonable discussions around relaxing the current rules to enable the use of readily available parts (rods&bearing, trans etc.). Valid, as they are now obtainable and in quantity (something that wasn't 20+ years ago)...



Henk has a strong point.
Is it needed?
and will we see people take advantage and cross over?
Well the answer is maybe (and in small numbers; nothing like the FXRs did for the class)....
But if the opportunity isn't there we will never know. The key question is will it effect the class and the culture wrapped around it??
Yes if it generate friction between current active rider conforming to the rules... Or if there is a perception of unfairness.

So, if the above comments suggest there is not a reason to make the change, then it's just something that people should consider (what does the future of the class look like? And what are the people involved in the class interested in primarily?
Will we see a shift away from enjoyment of both side engineering & racing; to that of just racing?
Is that where we want to head?

[jasonu]

Haven't had time yet to get through all 43 pages but has anyone yet mentioned what I feel the best argument *for* allowing an MX 85 rule (something choppa's been banging on about for years) and that's the opportunity to lure kids over from Junior MX to try a different code. Makes pretty good sense to me.

Why would you even want to lure kids in. They aren't interested in building, testing, developing anything. Those kids aren't interested in Buckets. They want to ride something that looks more like a motogp bike for instance the Hyosong class. As has been pointed out several times Buckets really doesn't need lots of new riders (the grids are already bursting at the seams) and the last thing it needs is a bunch of kids that think everything should be done for them and their screaming fathers yelling at everyone.

[Yow Ling]

I agree with you Jason. Down here they start on RG150's andmove up to buckets or whatever later on, so they already have plenty good racecraft when they arrive and start kicking arse. The annoying ones have already been weeded out. Not sure why everyone thinks buckets is an entry level class , most of the racers are 35 + and been around for years.

I don't see the 85 mx as bait for new riders just an option where you trade off 15% of your capacity for a CR gearbox, and a couple of kilo's. There is nothing magical in the barrel that cant be replicated in a 100 cc engine.

[quallman1234]

Here in Wellington its a little different.

So your saying that for a new kid to get the best riding in. He should drag his gear/bike up for 2 hour trip to manfield, to get a practice and 3 races.
Totalling something like 20 laps or maybe 30 minutes on the track. Likely having to stay the night sometimes, and paying 100$ in entry fees (Okay i'm not sure what the juniour rate is these days).
Not to mention only once a month.
Versus taking there bike to upper hutt and having 1 practice and 5 races, for 35$. Not to mention free practice whenever he wishes, if he purchases a key for 100$ a year.
People learn faster or slower than others. The absolute number 1 thing you can do for someone learning is to provide them as much track time as possible.
When i was racing Streetstock, i barely rode the thing, and had to relearn each month for the first couple of sessions!
You guys have it alot better in CH for access to the track, dont forget we do not have anything like you guys do!
There's a shit load more corners at Kaitoke vs Manfield, and it does convert very easily.

The racing on kart tracks is always a whole bunch tighter than the big tracks up here. The big track racing always becomes spread out.
You dont need 16hp here to be competitive in B-grade.
I pretty much have a stock FXR, with good tires/rims and a carb, and if the fast bikes dont turn up (its pretty rare to see them now), i am around 2nd/3rd in A grade.
I am underpowered, but i have the ability to ride around it a little bit.

[jasonu]

There is nothing magical in the barrel that cant be replicated with a lot of time, effort and skill for instance better transfers and a bridgeport exhaust in a 100 cc engine.

Added a bit to your post.

[husaberg]

Added a bit to your post.

You missed the full tunnel crankcase reed, low internal primary drive, Clutch made for abuse, and not just bridge port exhaust, some have aux ex ports....... thing is though getting these kids to cross over on a modied std frame mx bike anyone aware why the MNZ separates Motards and Road racers on street curcuits.......... Billy ...........

[Drew]

You missed the full tunnel crankcase reed, low internal primary drive, Clutch made for abuse, and not just bidge port exhaust, some have aux ex ports....... thing is though getting these kids to cross over on a modied std frame mx bike anyone aware why the MNZ separates Motards and Road racers on street curcuits.......... Billy ...........

The current crop of MX bikes, are twin spar alluminium frames aren't they?

So why do the bikes need to be set up like a motard when they can get clip on bars and firm suspension?

[husaberg]

The current crop of MX bikes, are twin spar alluminium frames aren't they?

So why do the bikes need to be set up like a motard when they can get clip on bars and firm suspension?

There is no twin spar 85's as far as i am aware, unless Cobra do one.
Thing is Drew people are saying get the kids in well, Frankly it won't, without mods to the bikes.
Maybe the answer is to do a junior motard class at the kart tracks that way they will be competive get some tarmac experiance for minimum cost just let them throw on some 12 inch rims on sticky tires keep the rest homolgated that way they will all run the same lines for minium cost and investment.
I still say a use of the KTM50 sx and pro snr's 2002-2008 needs to be found , there is plenty arround, they would be ideal kart track bikes,They have no fun bike use as they are not really suitable for learners at all.

[Yow Ling]

Here in Wellington its a little different.

So your saying that for a new kid to get the best riding in. He should drag his gear/bike up for 2 hour trip to manfield, to get a practice and 3 races.
Totalling something like 20 laps or maybe 30 minutes on the track. Likely having to stay the night sometimes, and paying 100$ in entry fees (Okay i'm not sure what the juniour rate is these days).
Not to mention only once a month.

Not saying that at all, just saying that down here buckets is different than up there.
At MCI meets buckets and streetstocks run in the same race so no difference except street stockers are racing other street stockers
Also the Street stock are split into Junior and senior so experienced older riders cant rain on the junior SS parade.
MCI also runs a training class which is tracktime but not racing, 3 sessions per raceday, I think its free, this feeds the ss class and ultimately the exotic classes like Buckets and Superbikes

While we get plenty access to the track ,when buckets are run separately, its an all in, no A grade / B grade / F5 so not always the best environment for beginners.

I guess its down to the clubs to provide a structure that works given the resources available.

[quallman1234]

Not saying that at all, just saying that down here buckets is different than up there.
At MCI meets buckets and streetstocks run in the same race so no difference except street stockers are racing other street stockers
Also the Street stock are split into Junior and senior so experienced older riders cant rain on the junior SS parade.
MCI also runs a training class which is tracktime but not racing, 3 sessions per raceday, I think its free, this feeds the ss class and ultimately the exotic classes like Buckets and Superbikes

While we get plenty access to the track ,when buckets are run separately, its an all in, no A grade / B grade / F5 so not always the best environment for beginners.

I guess its down to the clubs to provide a structure that works given the resources available.

I agree completely, there is a large difference between Buckets in each island, and any rule change would have to suit both.
Buckets tends to be the better beginning class due to access in the NI, and perhaps Streetstock for the SI.

[mr bucketracer]

I should say out...
But I'm on the list of supporters of trying something different (without adverse effects to the current state of the class) And have been involved in the sport for a reasonable length of time (1994)... And seen it's ups and downs.
And I do have a roll to luring kids (read newbies) across from different codes (all be it bigger bikes); but regularly suggest that the newbies (to bigger bikes) to go bucket racing to improve race craft skills... This is the real opportunity this class offers, skill development and time on bike racing.

I have no agenda as I've already got some cool F4 machines, and no way would I likely head down down the 85cc path (and I can't ride what I've got anyway, just making up numbers).

But, as I see it, the current rules support the ethos of the class (the only true formula racing left in NZ). I certainly do not want to destroy this.
I do see the 85cc as a way to jump in to the class with a competitive engine (reducing the required level of engineering and understanding of performance tuning): to give a leg up and allow for focus on racing rather than engineering... This is my primary driver (the game has changed and you need 16+ Hp to be even out near the front of Bgrade). Gone of the days of turning up with a farm engine (ported and piped to Bell) and not being lapped in the lower class, this could very well be a turnoff to the Y,Z gens... But there are already plenty of options within the current rules and help (even if they don't look sexy to the new generation)...

But if the idea/concept results in the "it's not fair" and pursuing rules arm race (modifications within the current rules) then there is not benefit at all in allowing 85 in.

In saying this however There are reasonable discussions around relaxing the current rules to enable the use of readily available parts (rods&bearing, trans etc.). Valid, as they are now obtainable and in quantity (something that wasn't 20+ years ago)...



Henk has a strong point.
Is it needed?
and will we see people take advantage and cross over?
Well the answer is maybe (and in small numbers; nothing like the FXRs did for the class)....
But if the opportunity isn't there we will never know. The key question is will it effect the class and the culture wrapped around it??
Yes if it generate friction between current active rider conforming to the rules... Or if there is a perception of unfairness.

So, if the above comments suggest there is not a reason to make the change, then it's just something that people should consider (what does the future of the class look like? And what are the people involved in the class interested in primarily?
Will we see a shift away from enjoyment of both side engineering & racing; to that of just racing?
Is that where we want to head?

maybe a new rule (you can't buy Hp) .. that would releave me of some frigging pain! for the yes man

[Yow Ling]

maybe a new rule (you can't buy Hp) .. that would releave me of some frigging pain! for the yes man

I think that is the problem, don't like something, make a rule.RIch bans bike is too fast new rule no light blue bikes, when you turn the shower on you get wet. I think that is how it has to be if we go with mx85, not much point in having some buckets loaded with rules, the carb rule for 125 ac should go now and like every other group in buckets be limited by capacity alone

[kel]

Yea,

Re the rulebook,Goodluck with that,It's an embarrasment to the sport.

It would be nice to have them tidied up, and the holes pluged!

BUT

Someone made a start this year with the fuel rule and look at the stink that caused

[kel]

the carb rule for 125 ac ahold go now and like every other group in buckets be limited by capacity alone

No, no, no. That would mean more power, more heat, more problems. The damn things are too unstable as it is.