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Thread: The cheater MX85 argument. I might be changing my mind.

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by richban View Post
    If you allow 85's MX engine's you have to allow 150's They make the same power. And both capable of 30hp. Portland rules Jason. But they also run the bikes with slicks. No big deal really. It would also allow kids that want to step up to development class to run at the front on there bucket. Win win. Lets get it done. Move the sport forward and maybe we will see more young ones take it up.
    Buckets is a class for tinkerers, not for kids. The young ones that do race backets have someone supporting them that does the tuning, fabricating and building, or at least someone who pays for it all.

    The advantages for Buckets are they're relatively inexpensive, for a motorsport they're relatively safe, it's ridiculously competitive and has an excellent community. To get kids involved you have to convince the parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    yes issue i see putting aside costs etc is it escalates buckets out of a tuner class based on commuter bikes.....
    Which i think was the original point of the class...........
    Classes evolve over time and the point of them changes. Change isn't a bad thing. The question is; is it time for Buckets in NZ to evolve?

    Quote Originally Posted by seymour14 View Post
    This kind of thinking ruined the F3 class, suddenly your exciting development of 400's gave way to an off the shelf 650 that put everyone else in the weeds. Buy a bike and win the class. No real development or pushing the limits of what you could do. Just chequebook racing.
    They must've been slow 400's. Stock SV's are mostly in the back half of the field. Any SV's in the front half of the field have pretty much been to Warren Bridger or someone similar. The class leading SV's are far from stock.

    But, F3 is an example of a class that's evolved and will continue to.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    yes issue i see putting aside costs etc is it escalates buckets out of a tuner class based on commuter bikes.....
    Which i think was the original point of the class...........
    Crazy talk.

    Actually I mentioned earlier.....the point of the bucket class is hidden in its name.
    Bucket of ______

    This was prior to it becoming
    "It's not a racebike its a restricted hot rod"

    Most the bikes on the track don't even leak oil anymore.

    As someone politely mentioned earlier.....there are 125 and 150 classes already.
    However bucket class had changed soo much that you could either stop all changes now or keep going........Either way I very much doubt you will see a Zundapp or Puch at the track anytime soon.
    As long as the racing stays fun I say the sky is the limit.

    Keep in the back of your minds guys - if your not having fun, or you're feeling bitter.......why are you in Buckets? Plenty of other classes to be bitter in.
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  3. #63
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  4. #64
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    Still think that you only have to look at the current line up of winning bikes and you will see a varied cross section of bikes. And that is a good thing. And you will only need to look at all the threads to see how much development is happening, and will continue to happen, within the current set of rules.

    Changing the rules will only succeed in pissing off people who are constantly having to throw away a perfectly good bike to build (or buy) a new one to fit new rules.

    The reason Kawasaki threw in the towel with the MotoGP's, too many changes causing constant expense, making it harder for competitive racing, rather then more inclusive.

    Not against change, but change too frequently and it just gets in the too hard basket eventually.

  5. #65
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    See no need for major changes myself.........
    just a tweek to keep the costs down with the 2t consumables ie 52mm pistons.....

    std dynos for some of engines in question below
    note if they are 22-23 stock std i recon it would be piece of piss to get a few more hp out of them.......
    plus they have very close ratio gears and all sorts of parts not allowed under the current rules..
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mental Trousers View Post
    for a motorsport they're relatively safe
    I don't think it is any safer than any other class of Motorcycle racing, I've had worse and more injuries in Buckets than F1 Sidecars and seen a few others that have done the same
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
    I don't think it is any safer than any other class of Motorcycle racing, I've had worse and more injuries in Buckets than F1 Sidecars and seen a few others that have done the same
    Perceived then. After all, they're not doing 200kph and weigh considerably less.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    plus they have very close ratio gears and all sorts of parts not allowed under the current rules..
    Raises the question. How does a stock MX85 (except knobly's off) fair up against a stock CG125?

    There could be a move back to the traditions of "Ride what you brought". Sure people will tweak the f out of it. But I have seen lots of angst towards people who suggested mini-motards in buckets. Yet that would be a perfect way to balance the field - leaving close ratio boxes and small wheels. Short-shifting, high pick up, low speed MX vs high speed, high stability commuters.

    Seems a bit crazy to force everyone to make a "race bike" and then complain their race bike is too fast because they took an engine out of the standard (MX) frame and made it faster.

    I imagine there are truckloads of kids out there with mx85's who want to go racing......but no do trails.
    They aren't allowed on the speedways. But with road tyres could they be allowed in buckets?

    I mean an MX85 really is just the modern equivalent of half the bikes on the start-line in buckets. Apart from mudbugs, chinese crap and sport bikes......there isn't much in the 50-150 space that is road going these days.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
    I don't think it is any safer than any other class of Motorcycle racing, I've had worse and more injuries in Buckets than F1 Sidecars and seen a few others that have done the same
    Then maybe you should stick to sidecars...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonu View Post
    Then maybe you should stick to sidecars...
    i don't have a position on the question - but will point out that NI and SI bucket racing is in the main very different....and the big tracks do tend to have bigger accidents.

    the long tracks run on in the SI, in the main encourage somewhat more conservative tuning as the bikes are on full noise for longer _ as dave will testify, this tends to favour the 4 strokes...

    It would perhaps be a pleasant change to see for once a race class allow smaller motors, instead of the continual increase in size which as has been pointed out, stuffed F3.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by avgas View Post
    Raises the question. How does a stock MX85 (except knobly's off) fair up against a stock CG125?



    I mean an MX85 really is just the modern equivalent of half the bikes on the start-line in buckets. Apart from mudbugs, chinese crap and sport bikes......there isn't much in the 50-150 space that is road going these days.
    No a MX85 is not a modern eq of a bucket, it a fully fledged production MX bike build from the ground up in a factory to be a competition bike.
    It is exactly the kind of engine deliberately excluded in the rules.
    Letting them in the class becomes cheque book racer class for lil johnies...........
    plus it begs the question, if they become legal, does that also follow other competition parts are then ok for the other bikes say Sleeved NX4 b kit cylinders
    TZ125 crankshafts.......CR125 Gearboxs



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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by seymour14 View Post
    Yes, reality with GPR's point of view too, their are plenty of Lifans, FXR's and the likes, and will be for years, as soon as we push past these there will be more expense for the average person, not less.

    This kind of thinking ruined the F3 class, suddenly your exciting development of 400's gave way to an off the shelf 650 that put everyone else in the weeds. Buy a bike and win the class. No real development or pushing the limits of what you could do. Just chequebook racing.

    Buckets at the moment can be anything you are prepared to invest into it. Cheap, and go have some fun, or more expensive and you get to throw some engineering skills into the mix.

    If it aint broken, don't fix it...
    Sorry buddy but that just does not stack up.

    Why do you say more expense. If someone finds a cheap MX engine and whacks it in a frame. What is the difference between that and an FXR engine. Except that the FXR engine will cost 800 bucks. Oh and be just as fucked.

    As far as I can see F3 is still working fine. The numbers go up and down over the years and what do you know still a 400 or 450 ZXR is running at the front at the Nats.

    Buckets will still be what you are prepared to invest. Thats the beauty of the class. Allowing MX engines will not change much at all. I will still run my heavy 27hp FXR. And still get smoked by better riders with less power. If someone wants to drop all there coin on a flash bike and engine then so fucken what! They still have to ride the bloody thing.

    If people want to play with engines then ummmmmmm. Guess what, they still can.

    People need to just step back and think about the sport not about themselves. Its not a big deal.

  13. #73
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    22ish hp would see them doing OK at buckets but to win would still need a good rider and chassis setup. The 85mx engine isn't going to immediately make everything, or anything that isn't already, obsolete. My thinking is mx85 completely stock including carb but not pipe in any chassis. Completely stock is easy to police. It would actually make buckets more competitive as more people would be able to get their hands on 22hp, and probably at a lower cost/effort. With all the dynos around you could even require them to be dynoed to check peak horsepower.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by richban View Post
    Sorry buddy but that just does not stack up.

    Why do you say more expense. If someone finds a cheap MX engine and whacks it in a frame. What is the difference between that and an FXR engine. Except that the FXR engine will cost 800 bucks. Oh and be just as fucked.

    As far as I can see F3 is still working fine. The numbers go up and down over the years and what do you know still a 400 or 450 ZXR is running at the front at the Nats.

    Buckets will still be what you are prepared to invest. Thats the beauty of the class. Allowing MX engines will not change much at all. I will still run my heavy 27hp FXR. And still get smoked by better riders with less power. If someone wants to drop all there coin on a flash bike and engine then so fucken what! They still have to ride the bloody thing.

    If people want to play with engines then ummmmmmm. Guess what, they still can.

    People need to just step back and think about the sport not about themselves. Its not a big deal.
    just remember fxr's cost stuff all until it was used as a bucket , good bike been just stick some slicks on it with i bit of extra work and go racing . as for f3 that class was aways big .(70hp bikes) went to 85+hp sv650 and 2 seconds faster a lap .. ever second zxr that went to a 450 went bang after that until 10k more was spend on it

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    22ish hp would see them doing OK at buckets but to win would still need a good rider and chassis setup. The 85mx engine isn't going to immediately make everything, or anything that isn't already, obsolete. My thinking is mx85 completely stock including carb but not pipe in any chassis. Completely stock is easy to police. It would actually make buckets more competitive as more people would be able to get their hands on 22hp, and probably at a lower cost/effort. With all the dynos around you could even require them to be dynoed to check peak horsepower.
    easy to police? but who pays to police it?
    Gee any sneaky bugger could do a cdi rejig with a switch to swap back to std config.



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