The cheater MX85 argument. I might be changing my mind.

[richban]

Bet few bucket racers have the slightest idea what is involved in making a competitive superbike motor.

For sure. Its a different level. They come so good out of the box. You got to work hard to find an edge.

[Skunk]

Bingo. If MX85s come in you got to work hard to find an edge.
And at the same time - without any work - they put you in the ballpark.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[Skunk]

For what it is worth, in my opinion this thread has run its course and is starting to go in circles.

But we haven't got to post 10000 yet.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[F5 Dave]

FXRs with a clever pipe & carb get you in the ballpark. But remember they have a spread of power so lets not totally fixate on peak power as its average power under the curve between gearchanges that matters most (and no jokes about my 50, I know its peaky, trust me).

Actually Pumba reminds me of something. Year before GP I took the 50 out for some laps in the Tokoroa race. Ended up having a long dice with Richard & Pumba. Richards bike was pretty sad for an FXR but had the FXR spread. Pumba's bike I don't know how worked it is but looks pretty standard. Up the hill I was getting good drive. My 50 is light & lets just say I'm probably lighter than Pumba. He'd just pull away up the hill. Pure power spread despite a weight advantage of a few 10s of kilos.

So lets not get too hung up on peak power.

[Bert]

FXRs with a clever pipe & carb get you in the ballpark. But remember they have a spread of power so lets not totally fixate on peak power as its average power under the curve between gearchanges that matters most (and no jokes about my 50, I know its peaky, trust me).

Actually Pumba reminds me of something. Year before GP I took the 50 out for some laps in the Tokoroa race. Ended up having a long dice with Richard & Pumba. Richards bike was pretty sad for an FXR but had the FXR spread. Pumba's bike I don't know how worked it is but looks pretty standard. Up the hill I was getting good drive. My 50 is light & lets just say I'm probably lighter than Pumba. He'd just pull away up the hill. Pure power spread despite a weight advantage of a few 10s of kilos.

So lets not get too hung up on peak power.

A really good perceptive on things Dave.
A MX85 isn't going to provide a big power spread, so it's going to take a good lightweight rider to take advantage over a four stroke. And this was shown with Glen's performance the other weekend (I would classify him as a good lightweight rider too)...

If this was 10-15years ago, I expect this discussion to be a non event (all round NO, which it was). But I think there is some on here that do see the forest for the trees. The game has changed and the bar has lifted; An MX85 powered RS/whatever isn't going to leave the current crop of A-graders in their dust. Those that are fringe or slower (or a little large like myself) will suffer.
But that's the reality of what this class has moved towards anyway. If your good, prepared (physically) and you have a good package you will do well, if not then your only turning up to have fun..
Especially at GP or BOB level (when things get serious). North Islands, it comes down to consistency and finishing; ticking up points (and club level too). Adding in a few more finishing twostrokers is only going to make things more interesting.
The tighter the competition will result in the bar lifting further (development will continue) and more the class will interest or encourage others...

As for the sprit of buckets being solely engineering... I say bollocks... It's racing or being out there enjoying it.. Some of us get a kick out of the tinkering and learning the engineering along the way; but that's second to the fun had on track (otherwise we wouldn't be tinkering in the first place). Just turning up and having fun is the main purpose for most of our involvement. The tighter the racing the bigger the smile. So, I'm not sure how a MX85 effects this???

I still struggle to believe anyone would get a MX85 more than 22-26 with narrow band, those with 100s/125s will get more bang for buck 24-28s with more torque and wider delivery. Some will/are getting more...

[F5 Dave]

Well yeah things have moved on. Jay, Hamish & I were cleaning up the F4 class quite easily a decade back on our 50s, mine was still putting out 12hp in even peakier format & with a mistake side mounted shock on the RG50 frame was a bit groguse on the bumps, the others made up with better handling bikes & much less peak power but with spread I could only dream of.

Now days my improved 50 is an also-ran in F4, top runners will lap me if we run 20 laps. F4 has improved out of sight from a lap time point of view.

[husaberg]

A really good perceptive on things Dave.
A MX85 isn't going to provide a big power spread, so it's going to take a good lightweight rider to take advantage over a four stroke. And this was shown with Glen's performance the other weekend (I would classify him as a good lightweight rider too)...

If this was 10-15years ago, I expect this discussion to be a non event (all round NO, which it was). But I think there is some on here that do see the forest for the trees. The game has changed and the bar has lifted; An MX85 powered RS/whatever isn't going to leave the current crop of A-graders in their dust. Those that are fringe or slower (or a little large like myself) will suffer.
But that's the reality of what this class has moved towards anyway. If your good, prepared (physically) and you have a good package you will do well, if not then your only turning up to have fun..
Especially at GP or BOB level (when things get serious). North Islands, it comes down to consistency and finishing; ticking up points (and club level too). Adding in a few more finishing twostrokers is only going to make things more interesting.
The tighter the competition will result in the bar lifting further (development will continue) and more the class will interest or encourage others...

I still struggle to believe anyone would get a MX85 more than 22-26 with narrow band, those with 100s/125s will get more bang for buck 24-28s with more torque and wider delivery. Some will/are getting more...

I struggle to get past the fact they are made as race bikes.
Not sure what the 80GP bikes were making in the 80's 30+?
i have flip flopped a bit butit just doesn't feel right....

[Bert]

I struggle to get past the fact they are made as race bikes.
Not sure what the 80GP bikes were making in the 80's 30+?
i have flip flopped a bit butit just doesn't feel right....

Different purpose race bikes though.

80's GP 80cc, narrow powerband, rotary valves, big carbs, custom electronics (yes). 33hp I think.

So, back to the case of setting up the rules correctly. To do this we need to see what they are actually capable of.

And as for the derbi, yes maybe we should start importing in the AM6 motors... Easily, TZ I'll take one of your ten required order... I know they will fit the TZ frame.

[CM2005]

I struggle to get past the fact they are made as race bikes.
Not sure what the 80GP bikes were making in the 80's 30+?
i have flip flopped a bit butit just doesn't feel right....

Ermagherd rers berk urngurns!
No shit! BUT as has been made clear in the past 15 pages it doesn't mean someones bringing an NSR500 to the bucket GP.
F5 dave has the right perspective it's about the area "under" the curve. Compare 125GP to Moto 3 laptimes...

Krauser 80 made 24hp at 14000rpm in 1984 - so comparable to a fresh MX85 now

some cool clips

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5wwiTnAvnw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4yRFm0ksd8

[husaberg]

Ermagherd rers berk urngurns!
No shit! BUT as has been made clear in the past 15 pages it doesn't mean someones bringing an NSR500 to the bucket GP.
F5 dave has the right perspective it's about the area "under" the curve. Compare 125GP to Moto 3 laptimes...

Krauser 80 made 24hp at 14000rpm in 1984 - so comparable to a fresh MX85 now

some cool clips

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5wwiTnAvnw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4yRFm0ksd8

Yeah but and as i keep saying "they have bits in them that the other bikes are not allowed to use".........
Say if the bits were open would i change my mind, honestly I don't know?
they may not be NSR500's, but the current rules exclude them for the same reason..........
Not many f4 2 strokes were brought out with case reed and water cooled in a size over 50 but under 100 .....Derbi?

[F5 Dave]

Derbis only come as 50s. Really

[Skunk]

Husaberg; I think you're getting too hung up on what was instead of what is. No; the other engines should not get competition parts as that will destroy the purpose of the MX85 and ruin the rest of the class. IMHO.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

[husaberg]

Derbis only come as 50s. Really

oh what motor did the rs80 have? Rotax?
I thought Aprilia actually did a RS80 as well?

[CM2005]

oh what motor did the rs80 have? Rotax?

The 80's in Auckland are Metrakit Derbi engines i think?

[husaberg]

Husaberg; I think you're getting too hung up on what was instead of what is. No; the other engines should not get competition parts as that will destroy the purpose of the MX85 and ruin the rest of the class. IMHO.


If it ain't smokin', it's broken.

No skunk "what it is", is the current rules........ that some should think should change what to what you want.
Are you suggesting competition parts should be allowed but only for mx85 and then suggesting mx85 should be able to run cause they are cheaper to run.........it seems a bit on the nose.........