The cheater MX85 argument. I might be changing my mind.

**Sketchy_Racer** · 23rd May 2014, 20:09

Originally Posted by jasonu

What do you mean by 'performance potential limited to 30HP'? Is someone going to supply a mobile dyno at the tracks to verify this?
There is already a shit load of 'hot motors running around'.
Not having a go at you personally but over the years I have seen a lot of 'proper race bike' guys show up to buckets with the idea that it is a bit of a joke and they are going to clean up. Bayden Sprozens comes to mind. Maybe the rules don't quite suit as to be at the pointy end you have to put in some hard yards first ie develop a good machine and if a motor that developed good hp out of the box ie MX85 (and weighed buggar all compared to current legal offerings and no one has said much about that point) could be made legal for the class then that is a fast track to being competitive and too bad for the developers that have already put in those hard yards.

When I say performance potential I mean that the limiting capacity to restrict motors to that HP. If a MX85 has the same power per litre as a RS125 it would have 28HP. Tuning a motor to that level is no easy feat.

No offence taken and I can see where you are coming from in terms of people tuning up. Some do and want to change it all, but usually their agenda is genuine in the fact that they want to "improve" buckets. I'm sure Sloan Frost is an advocate for 85s because he has MotoX background and knows the motors. Not because he wants to buy an off the shelf GP motor for buckets. While I haven't been around buckets for long in terms of the origin of buckets ( I was but a twinkle in my fathers eye) I have been in buckets since 2002. I started on an old K100 kawi then had one of the first FXR150s back then (much to peoples disgust) then for the last 4 years or so I have had a MB100. I love my 2Ts I really dont want a toyota FXR150 but I am also sick and tired of my shitty MB100 giving up the ghost. Snapped rods, split pistons and more holed pistons than I care to admit and to top it off now I have bent cases. I want a reliable 2T like the 4 stroke lads have reliable 4Ts

Originally Posted by chrisc

You still have to put the engine in a frame, set the bike up, make the exhaust fit, tune it, blah blah blah in order to compete. Whilst I agree it might slightly help those looking for an easy way in, to speak as if this will now allow a competitive, easy to set up bike on the grid for any joe to start dominating instantly is exaggeration. Only those willing to put in the hard effort would see any reward from this. Shit most won't even finish the engine swap!

I still maintain that if this rule was passed, the percentage take up would be minimal in the grand scheme of things. Most people just want an easy, reliable, fairly competitive FXR to have some fun on.

Swapping engines is a moot point when talking 2T buckets, unless you feel like racing in stock GP125 TF125.... chassis you will have to do an engine fitment to a more suitable chassis.

**chrisc** · 23rd May 2014, 20:34

Originally Posted by Sketchy_Racer

Swapping engines is a moot point when talking 2T buckets, unless you feel like racing in stock GP125 TF125.... chassis you will have to do an engine fitment to a more suitable chassis.

That was the point I was trying to make, however badly I made it. You still have to put a lot of effort into building it up to being a good engine and chassis combination (and also ride the bloody thing). Just letting in the 85s won't change that, unlike letting in FXRs which meant a fairly competitive (comparably) complete bike right off the bat. Many/arguably most bucket racers just want to just on and ride.

**CHOPPA** · 23rd May 2014, 21:35

Do these little 85 engine need an air boot? Could I just put a pod filter straight on the carb?

**Bert** · 23rd May 2014, 23:10

Originally Posted by CHOPPA

Do these little 85 engine need an air boot? Could I just put a pod filter straight on the carb?

No filter at all Chopper.
Unless your planning on going off road.
Though re jetting would be required.

**Sketchy_Racer** · 24th May 2014, 00:07

Originally Posted by CHOPPA

Do these little 85 engine need an air boot? Could I just put a pod filter straight on the carb?

I'm running mine with nothing. Don't use a pod filter they will suck all your precious power away.

**TZ350** · 24th May 2014, 07:19

Originally Posted by Mental Trousers

How about a table.

	4 stroke	2 stroke
ace tuners	well catered for	well catered for
not tuners	FXR's galore	???

Legal 2 stroke engines that are the equivalent of a standard FXR.

There are way more 2 strokes on Tradenme than FXR150's. I only did the Suzuki's and got bored about half way through, someone else can do the other makes.

Clearly if there are this many new and secondhand legal bikes on Trademe then there must be a lot of serviceable engines lying about.

These farm/trail bikes are 12-14 or so rwhp std same as a std FXR and they can be developed to mid 20's no problem. The ESE thread has all the info you need and you will learn a few things and pickup a skill or two along the way.

A TS/TF125 is the engine Rick peddles and with low 20's hp he is right up there at the sharp end. There is nothing special about the rod/bigend/piston or any other components Rick uses, its all simple (mostly original) stuff, anyone could do it.

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Rick is carrying his

number one North Island plate on his RS framed air cooled Suzuki TS/TF125 2T farm bike engine and is leading the pack of mostly highly modified FXR engines in special frames.

MX85's don't level the playing field they represent a significant starting point advantage over whats currently legal to run and still in plentiful supply.

The only leveling of the playing field I can see is an MX85 allows someone to skip the basic steps of having to take a 12-14hp unit and develop some front running power from it.

To be a winner at Buckets, not only do you have to be a good rider, part of the challenge of Bucket racing is to be peddling something competitive that was made from a bucket of s....t or at least washed the cow dung of it first.

There is nothing running at the pointy end of Buckets that is std, so for those that want to use a MX85 to level the playing field with the development work done by others, stop being a baby and get with building your own hp like the other front running Buckateers do.

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Get with the program and grab yourself a 2T engine from here:- http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-697985430.htm

TS125 complete bike good nick $1,200 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-706849934.htm

TF125 complete bike good nick $1,300 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-729353050.htm

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Wrecking TF/TS and other farm bikes ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-732020815.htm

TS125 complete bike $595 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-731319028.htm

Suzuki GT125 twin $171 at the moment ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-731130670.htm

TF125 complete bike $1000 current bid $260 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-731130670.htm

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**steamroller** · 24th May 2014, 09:17

Originally Posted by TZ350

Legal 2 stroke engines that are the equivalent of a standard FXR.
....

Your bang on there rob

**wobbly** · 24th May 2014, 09:22

But the other point I forgot to add re the MX80/85 thing is what are the rules actually trying to achieve.
Get more 2Ts into a bucket field, or just get more " people " involved in the sport, or what ?
Thing is that it would be very easy to shove a small MX engine in a bucket frame,with dead stock pipe etc and have a hell of alot of fun without investing a shitload of knowledge,time,cash.
Then there is the opportunity to go out to 100cc with all manner of mods, if the punter had the desired knowledge ,time,cash.
But going the other way, from 125MX, back to 100cc will always involve plenty of knowledge,time,cash, just like it is now with 125 aircooled.
Depends on how far we want to go in trying to keep the 2T alive against the 4T scourge.

**TZ350** · 24th May 2014, 09:31

Originally Posted by wobbly

But the other point I forgot to add re the MX80/85 thing is what are the rules actually trying to achieve.
Get more 2Ts into a bucket field, or just get more " people " involved in the sport, or what ?

At the moment I think F4 grids are bigger than any other class, but if the need is to involve even more people in the sport, then getting the MX kids and their MX85's involved makes sense, although I don't think we need to look at that yet but if its to whack the 4T's then your proposed 100cc unlimited rule looks very very interesting.

**Bert** · 24th May 2014, 09:44

Originally Posted by wobbly

But the other point I forgot to add re the MX80/85 thing is what are the rules actually trying to achieve.
Get more 2Ts into a bucket field, or just get more " people " involved in the sport, or what ?

Both in my perspective.

Originally Posted by wobbly

Thing is that it would be very easy to shove a small MX engine in a bucket frame,with dead stock pipe etc and have a hell of alot of fun without investing a shitload of knowledge,time,cash.

Bingo - Total agree with that statement.

Originally Posted by wobbly

Then there is the opportunity to go out to 100cc with all manner of mods, if the punter had the desired knowledge ,time,cash.
But going the other way, from 125MX, back to 100cc will always involve plenty of knowledge,time,cash, just like it is now with 125 aircooled.
Depends on how far we want to go in trying to keep the 2T alive against the 4T scourge.

nope; keep the 85 as 85 only.
In my view this was an addition to the set of current rules (io.e. no changes to them).
Sleeving MX125's to 100s would have the potential to out perform anything currently constructed.

but maybe you are being more subtle

**Sketchy_Racer** · 24th May 2014, 10:30

Originally Posted by TZ350

Legal 2 stroke engines that are the equivalent of a standard FXR.

There are way more 2 strokes on Tradenme than FXR150's. I only did the Suzuki's and got bored about half way through, someone else can do the other makes.

*SNIP*

Plenty of bikes so the need for MX85's to rescue two strokes in Buckets looks to be a bit premature.

Well, I have to say that I can't argue with the fact that there are a lot of the TF125s available, and agree that Ricks bike is a very good package in terms of a bike, it's got a great chassis and great power.

But I do find a little bit of irony that it suggested that everyone should have to learn to be an engine tuner if they want a fast motor but it's accepted that it ok to go buy a RS chassis that handles great from the get go. I think every one should stop being so lazy and read a thread on the internet and learn how to setup a chassis and make it handle good... ( I don't it's just a tongue in cheek point)

But suggesting that everyone should learn to be an engine tuner is not really the go, it's not everyone's interest or skill set nor should it have to be. A MX85 does not compare to a "hot" FXR150 it compares to stock FXR150 with a muffler and carb which is perfect.

Again the MX85s are not to fix buckets, nor take over buckets they are to allow a choice of a modern motor that is a good base package for those who want a 2T without learning the fundamentals of 2T engine development.

As stated earlier, MX85s or their equivalent are already here in buckets, they just have DERBI on the side of the case instead of Suzuki, Kawi etc.

**TZ350** · 24th May 2014, 10:59

Originally Posted by Sketchy_Racer

But suggesting that everyone should learn to be an engine tuner is not really the go, it's not everyone's interest or skill set nor should it have to be.

Your quite right, but actually this is the class for engine tuners, the essence of Buckets is building your own hp from a non competition engine. There is any manner of std production classes like F1 and F2 and the less expensive Hysong cup for those who only want to ride something store brought.

Personally I think, if someone does not want to learn about tuning and engine development this is not the class for them nor does those that enjoy the challenges it brings need to bend to accommodate them.

I think that if you want to play rider, developer in a real racing class then this is it. If you only want to ride, get a Hysong.

**Yow Ling** · 24th May 2014, 11:02

So to summarise the MX85 proposal as there are about 50 versions in this thread
F4
MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions
100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 107cc if new rulechange allowed
125cc 2t carb restriction 130cc max over size (considered dangerous in Australia)
150cc 4t no other restrictions 158.6cc max oversize

Looks good to me in this form , plenty of choices, cream always rises to the top

**Sketchy_Racer** · 24th May 2014, 11:07

Originally Posted by Yow Ling

So to summarise the MX85 proposal as there are about 50 versions in this thread
F4
MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions
100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 107cc if new rulechange allowed
125cc 2t carb restriction 130cc max over size (considered dangerous in Australia)
150cc 4t no other restrictions 158.6cc max oversize

Looks good to me in this form , plenty of choices, cream always rises to the top

Perfect!

10char

**TZ350** · 24th May 2014, 11:17

Originally Posted by Yow Ling

So to summarise the MX85 proposal as there are about 50 versions in this thread
F4
MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions
100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 107cc if new rulechange allowed
125cc 2t carb restriction 130cc max over size (considered dangerous in Australia)
150cc 4t no other restrictions 158.6cc max oversize

Looks good to me in this form , plenty of choices, cream always rises to the top

Makes more sense when you see it laid out.

And I could buy into this.

F4

MX engines, limited to 85cc no other restrictions

Non competition based engines.
100cc 2t no other restrictions max overbore 107cc if new rulechange allowed
125cc 2t 24mm carb no other restriction 135cc max over size to allow for 2mm OS so that all 125's get the 4 common 0.5mm re bore steps.
150cc 4t no other restrictions 158.6cc max oversize ... in fairness, over sizes need to be looked at here too.

Thread: The cheater MX85 argument. I might be changing my mind.

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