Suspension dyno

[Robert Taylor]

Following on from my assertions on another thread the attachment talks about ''cross talking'' that occurs with BPF forks ( or cynically ''Bad Performing Forks'' )

The reality is that because we have a sophisticated suspension dyno we are actually able to graphically view this issue and therefore are able to then make compensatory adjustments that will confirm that we have exactly hit target. To try and do this manually would take ''a month of Sundays'' . And even then the end result may still be a little wide of the mark

What we have also been able to achieve is revalving of many standard pistons ( of suitable port size and configuration ) without recourse to fitting an aftermarket piston set and the all too often ''setting banks'' that are less than ideal. In using the dyno we end up with a much better result at most often a lower overall cost. So before you jump in and purchase an aftermarket piston kit this is a serious and most often superior option. Indeed even with aftermarket pistons dyno tuning delivers the best end result, much as with power commanders and other performance components for engines.

Those who are prepared to understand suspension dyno graphs will see how the suspension responds to adjustment and will be able to make very effective use of such adjustments on road or track

[Mental Trousers]

I'm not surprised that there's cross talk because there's nothing to stop fluid flowing back through the bypass circuit. What is surprising is there's cross talk from rebound to compression but not the other way.

[AllanB]

Cross-talking is what happens after your wife finds the new suspension courier package sitting on the back step


So BPF will die away and be replaced with some other acronym that probably refers to the previous set-up?

[tippersv]

Cross-talking is what happens after your wife finds the new suspension courier package sitting on the back step

[Robert Taylor]

I'm not surprised that there's cross talk because there's nothing to stop fluid flowing back through the bypass circuit. What is surprising is there's cross talk from rebound to compression but not the other way.

With the rebound circuit it is a bleed passage through the shaft that flows in both directions. But on the compression side the external adjuster doesnt alter a compression bypass bleed because there isnt a seperate bleed circuit. It alters preload on a cup that is against the shim stack. Hence that is why compression adjustments will not affect rebound.

My point is it neccessitates having a suspension dyno to actually view this and understand it fully. Having such equipment is really what sets us apart from the rest of the industry players and our level of understanding is lifted immensely by graphically viewing the end result. Plus much as with engine dyno's it has dispelled a few myths.

Back around 2003 with our first suspension dyno ( it was Italian with ''Italian reliability'' ) we did a lot of dyno development work with the Ohlins rear suspension fitted into Shaun Harris's title winning CBR600RR. The success he had can ( in part ) be directly attributed to the gains we made in suspension valving and setup from the time we spent on the dyno. The same basic techniques were also applied later into Craig Shirriffs title winning GSXR600 in 04 ( I think ) . The current Roehrig dyno makes the old Italian dyno look like it was out of the 18th century. Work we have done with the current dyno assisted no end in attaining the first 4 places in the NZ 2013/14 Superbike championship. Having a suspension dyno doesnt of course make you an instant expert but long term it lifts your level of understanding, immensely.

The reality is that its use to verify that we have spec'd the internals to fit the application ( compliant road use through to hardcore track use ) is of priceless value. To those that might decry such equipment pedigree suspension manufacturers employ and use suspension dynos all the time. Its also a totally disingenuous thing to offer that ''setting banks'' from the manufacturers are totally foolproof and will allow for every scenario. Or that ''the suspension we sell is perfect out of the box''. That of course is total bollocks and has proven to be so.

While our demographic disposition may look like a burden to some ( New Plymouth ) the reality is we have the most complete and well equipped suspension workshop in New Zealand, by a huge margin. Because we have invested totally to offer such a COMPLETE service.

[AllanB]

BPF. Also makes me wonder about the new fancy electronic units appearing. Are they the future? Variables on a specific bike with potentially different riders over significantly different surfaces - can the electronics cater for all? And if they are the future why are they not appearing on race tracks - one could conceivably program the computer/suspension to suit each corner!

I presume the dyno would not be applicable to electronic suspension? Technology aye ..............? I swear we over complicate a lot of shit.

[Gremlin]

BPF. Also makes me wonder about the new fancy electronic units appearing. Are they the future? Variables on a specific bike with potentially different riders over significantly different surfaces - can the electronics cater for all? And if they are the future why are they not appearing on race tracks - one could conceivably program the computer/suspension to suit each corner!

If different riders have different preferences then no, one electronic setup isn't going to suit everyone. Also, one moment the bike can feel soft, then the next it's firm. Some riders want the suspension ball park and they're ready to ride (myself included). Others won't be happy until it's fully setup to suit them to a T (my boss is one).

Electronic suspension is still a shock, just with some extra variables. I was in Robert's workshop Monday, having the Mechatronic gear serviced, and we swapped the rear spring for a spring rate one higher. Now time in the seat is required to find out whether it's fixed a couple of things, but has no drawbacks...

[Robert Taylor]

BPF. Also makes me wonder about the new fancy electronic units appearing. Are they the future? Variables on a specific bike with potentially different riders over significantly different surfaces - can the electronics cater for all? And if they are the future why are they not appearing on race tracks - one could conceivably program the computer/suspension to suit each corner!

I presume the dyno would not be applicable to electronic suspension? Technology aye ..............? I swear we over complicate a lot of shit.

Slowly they will be the future yes. As the market accepts it, as volume can bring the price to manageable levels. Manufacturers dip their toe in the water with a very small number of targeted models to see how the market will react rather than going in boots and all. You have to remember that investment is massive and you must also see a return, with profit. Profit funds further R&D.

What people also often fail to realise is that manufacturers ( those that lead rather than those that follow or brazenly copy ) only have so much R&D capacity and so many staff resources. R&D takes lots of time and lots of money and that is also reflected in the price of the product. Ohlins ( for example ) have been working on electronically assisted suspension since 1984.

Our dyno is totally applicable to Ohlins electronic suspension yes, because we also invested in the Ohlins specific diagnostic equipment and interface tools. And a trip to Sweden to learn more. That is a further distinction we have over other industry players in NZ.

Ohlins Mechatronics appeared briefly in WSBK and won races comprehensively before being banned by the cavemen that so often make the rules. WP also had a system in the pipeline.

The potential is huge and personally I totally embrace that.

[husaberg]

Slowly they will be the future yes. As the market accepts it, as volume can bring the price to manageable levels. Manufacturers dip their toe in the water with a very small number of targeted models to see how the market will react rather than going in boots and all. You have to remember that investment is massive and you must also see a return, with profit. Profit funds further R&D.

What people also often fail to realise is that manufacturers ( those that lead rather than those that follow or brazenly copy ) only have so much R&D capacity and so many staff resources. R&D takes lots of time and lots of money and that is also reflected in the price of the product. Ohlins ( for example ) have been working on electronically assisted suspension since 1984.

Our dyno is totally applicable to Ohlins electronic suspension yes, because we also invested in the Ohlins specific diagnostic equipment and interface tools. And a trip to Sweden to learn more. That is a further distinction we have over other industry players in NZ.

Ohlins Mechatronics appeared briefly in WSBK and won races comprehensively before being banned by the cavemen that so often make the rules. WP also had a system in the pipeline.

The potential is huge and personally I totally embrace that.

Honda and whitepower raced with electronic set ups in the mid 90's, Doohan and Beigie wanted nothing to do with it.
The NSR500 with no mods or setup went 1 or maybe it was two seconds faster at the first attempt with out of the box Ohlins front and rear. Compared to the works Showa set up. With Doohan onboard.
oh I feel a 10% discount coming my way lol.
I have a pic of the electronic shock somewhere, I think the WP setup as well

[caseye]

Serious question Robert.
I'm happy to ride the NP and let you guys do the bizzo on my 09 Bandit, what sort of dollars am I looking at to make it suit me? without changing anything that doesn't absolutely ( You suggest it) need changing.
I know, variables mean it's hard, but a ball park figure.
Further if i could arrange for 2-4 riders to come down is a Saturday morning/day sufficient?

[Robert Taylor]

Serious question Robert.
I'm happy to ride the NP and let you guys do the bizzo on my 09 Bandit, what sort of dollars am I looking at to make it suit me? without changing anything that doesn't absolutely ( You suggest it) need changing.
I know, variables mean it's hard, but a ball park figure.
Further if i could arrange for 2-4 riders to come down is a Saturday morning/day sufficient?

If perhaps you can provide your e-mail address I will answer by those means, thanks

[Gremlin]

Further if i could arrange for 2-4 riders to come down is a Saturday morning/day sufficient?

I think he likes his weekends if possible, plus travels for racing events around the country. Weekdays suit better I think.

In terms of the suspension, I can qualify re time. It depends on your bike. If you want to pay less, then give him the shock for the work, don't make him remove it and install it (but he can if you want). Some shocks come out with very little work, others take shitloads of time.

First time, remove BMW suspension and install Ohlins, around 10 hours (rode it down so had to remove and install everything required). 2nd time, transported it down with excess panels removed already and left the bare minimum on to make it ridable for testing. Took about 7 hours all up, but I was twiddling my fingers while I gave them the shocks for servicing (one at a time).

[Robert Taylor]

Honda and whitepower raced with electronic set ups in the mid 90's, Doohan and Beigie wanted nothing to do with it.
The NSR500 with no mods or setup went 1 or maybe it was two seconds faster at the first attempt with out of the box Ohlins front and rear. Compared to the works Showa set up. With Doohan onboard.
oh I feel a 10% discount coming my way lol.
I have a pic of the electronic shock somewhere, I think the WP setup as well

Of course, development is relentless and the potential huge

[Drew]

The article didn't seem to say what bike the forks came from. At the end, it says the standard piston is shit (due to too small port area) and to replace it with Racetech items. You say in your opening statement that it's often cheaper and better to stick with original pistons, without going into specific models with too small a port area.

To sum up, I have learned nothing from the article. I did however learn why rebound clicker adjustment effects compression, though I knew already that it happened. That was from a reply to a specific question, directed at the good Doctor though.

Still summed up, I learned nothing from the article. Robert, I'm billing you for the ten minutes all of this has taken!

[nzspokes]

Out of interest Robert, would I get crosstalk in my VTR1k forks? I know they are old in design. Im very happy with them after the Gold Valves went in.

Interesting read.

We have electronic bicycle shocks that are terrain sensitive.