Does GOD approve of your motorcycle riding?

[bluninja]

FWIW all (the christian) gods laws and instructions are about providing us personally and socially a template to live a fantastic life. Most laws based on a biblical basis appear to be crimes against another person (violence, injury, death, theft, breaking of oaths and promises). Speeding as such, is a victimless crime, so doesn't fall within that scope.

If we were to follow the scripture Zed originally posted and adhere to all laws, because they are approved by god, then we fall into the nazi question again (as I posted originally, and BigDog repeated). Also consider this; were the laws to change (revert?) to something like 'first night' where a mans bride had to spend her first night with the local baron, would you go along with this law...or would you resist it because it would be wrong.....or would you become a baron

As for are 9 billion other people wrong? Who knows....I believe I'm trying to do the right thing. I leave everyone else to make their own choices, as does god.

[Andrew]

I believe I'm trying to do the right thing. I leave everyone else to make their own choices, as does god.

I agree

[Lou Girardin]

'Commanded by a higher power?'. I'm going to stop now, that guy may be armed!
Lou

[Zed]

If we were to follow the scripture Zed originally posted and adhere to all laws, because they are approved by god, then we fall into the nazi question again (as I posted originally, and BigDog repeated). Also consider this; were the laws to change (revert?) to something like 'first night' where a mans bride had to spend her first night with the local baron, would you go along with this law...or would you resist it because it would be wrong.....or would you become a baron .

Well Mr Ninja, the "powers that be which are ordained of God" are actually a reference to every authority that God uses in His master plan, not only governments. That includes the employer over the employee and the husband being the head of the home as examples...

If one of these ordained powers broke God's law, then you and I, the employee and the "poor wife", would not be subject unto that power- it would therefore be okay to resist it! Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Hilter is an excellent example- he was another anti-christ that wanted to be KING over the Third Reich (Kingdom/Empire). He broke most of Gods laws while he was in power...thankfully God stopped him in his tracks and didn't allow him to go on and be the world ruler that he was aspiring to be!

As for are 9 billion other people wrong? Who knows....I believe I'm trying to do the right thing. I leave everyone else to make their own choices, as does god.

So how do you know what is the right thing and what is the wrong thing? If we all make ourselves our own final authority like you we end up with arguments, threatenings, murders, rape & pilage, & ultimately war!...and isn't that where we are today? It's mankind causing all of these major problems in our society and the world because everyone does that which is right in his own eyes! Stop blaming all the mess on God and let's take some responsability ourselves.

As a Christian I have submitted myself to the final authority of God and His laws. Yes, sometimes I disobey and do what I want to do (especially on the road)...but I have found out over and over again that Gods ways are much higher & improved than mine, or any other mans for that matter!

Are 9 billion (more like 6) other people wrong...no, not ALL of them!


Zed

[SPman]

.......might point out that the sets of commandments were drafted some 3 millennia ago for a pre-scientific, religiously intolerant society in which women were considered property, slavery was widespread, there were numerous sins and crimes punished by the death penalty, and polygamy was common.

So....nothing much has changed then!

[Zed]

So....nothing much has changed then!

Please name your source?


Zed

[georgedubyabush]

Hilter is an excellent example- he was another anti-christ that wanted to be KING over the Third Reich (Kingdom/Empire). He broke most of Gods laws while he was in power...thankfully God stopped him in his tracks and didn't allow him to go on and be the world ruler that he was aspiring to be!

Thankfully? Stopped him in his tracks?? Didn't allow him????
About 50 million dead, the destruction of most of Europe and much of Asia and Africa, near annialation of an entire race. Global death and destruction on a scale never seen before.
Hmmm. A day late and a buck short I say.

[MikeL]

Stop blaming all the mess on God and let's take some responsability ourselves

As a Christian I have submitted myself to the final authority of God and His laws. Yes, sometimes I disobey and do what I want to do (especially on the road)...but I have found out over and over again that Gods ways are much higher & improved than mine, or any other mans for that matter!

And this is precisely why these arguments go nowhere. You talk about "God's laws" and "God's ways" with absolute certainty, as if they were an objective, demonstrable entity separate from men's interpretations. Where did they come from? Did God communicate them to you directly and personally? In this case they are the same as your conscience (but mine might be different). Or do you rely on holy writ? In which case you are remarkably selective in what you obey. When was the last time you joined in stoning an adultress? Are you careful not to wear any clothes of mixed fibres? And of course, never eat meat from an animal that isn't cloven-footed and chews the cud.
Your reference to God and Hitler would be laughable if it didn't remind one of the post-Holocaust soul-searching which made a good many Jews question the basis of their religion...
"Murders, rape, pillage...war..." I think if you read a bit of history you'll find that as much of this was done in the name of God as through men's greed, lust and savagery.
And finally, think about what your commitment to unquestioning acceptance of "God's law" means. Rather than taking responsibility it implies the opposite. You don't have to think deeply about moral and philosophical issues - God has done all the hard work for you. He has all the answers. Euthanasia, abortion, homosexuality, just look up what the Good Book says. And your life, death, salvation, little corner of heaven - the whole lot is neatly packaged and available for purchase at a religious supermarket near where you live. So much more convenient than having to think for yourself.

[wkid_one]

I have sooo been trying not to respond to this AGAIN......

However I gave in.

Zed - I would love to live in a world of blissful ignorance that you appear to live in (yes yes - tell me because I don't believe I am the one that is ignorant - ra ra ra ra)
However- Christianity needs to develop a modern thinking.....it still appears to providing a edict that isn't in tune with the modern situation.

Christianity was all well in good - when it was the principal and sole religion comprising a society - HOWEVER it now is essentially a bigotted practise in the multi-deity society we live in now.

Whilst it doesn't condone racism - it considers any other religion a sin? Is this not an oxymoron? Isn't it one and the same?

Christianity didn't become the 'proudest' religion based on the faith of the people, it became so on the blood other less 'militarily strong' societies. It came about through a fear of the church that the people would turn to alternate 'religions'.

God's Way and his Will have been used as cop outs and excuses by those wishing to achieve their own ends for years. It is also an easy excuse to take no accountability for the direction of your own life and ownership of the consquences of your own actions. How many times do you see Prisoners on death row suddenly finding redemption in the Lord?

Consider NZ - who are we to tell the Maori that their beliefs in Tane etc are false? Ohh that's right - they were less educated than us?? Education is a derivative from religious constructs, and was until recent times in the scheme of the human races restricted to those of the Cloth. Why? Because knowledge was and still is power. By restricting who had access to it - the Clergy could better control the masses....

IF their was a God - I would be interested to ask him if he felt our interpretation of 'his way' was accurate. I think you would find his answer would be no. Our time on this planet has largely been a bloody and terrible affair - and again....much is this is done in the name of religion.

As NZ becomes more and more multi-cultural, the diversity of religious beliefs will increase....is this a bad thing? Take Scientology or ChristaDelphianism......are these not more apt because they bring the religious beliefs in to the modern world and time?

I have no doubt that those practising most religions contribute positively to society - however one can still make a positive contribution without being religious - the two are mutually exclusive. As there are non-practising degenerates in society - their are also many practising degenerates (refer the press)

To follow religion and have a belief system that you fully appreciate is admirable - to do so blindly to other ideas/options stupid!

This is also not a personal attack before you start in as per usual....merely a rebut of your Statements........

I prefer CK's approach- where he is happy to converse via email in a rational, open-minded and thought-provoking manner.....you on the other hand, aren't doing any favours for the religious cause

You must also remember - I have never denied God's existence - I am merely asking for more proof

I would rather we take this discussion offline - as it is taking away from this board. my email is wkid_one@xtra.co.nz

[Zed]

Zed, Just a few Random thoughts.

If what you say is true then the Nazi's had nothing to fear when they were brought to judgement as they were just following the law of the land.

Their major mistake was that they didn't fear God!
Truth- if the law of the land contradicts Gods law then you are not obligated to follow it!
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Who here can say they have heard the word of god directly from him?

Once John the beloved finished penning the words of the Holy Spirit in the closing book of the Bible, Revelation, Gods book was complete! Gods word is in writing and can be read by anyone who pleases to know it...He doesn't audibly speak with men like He did when the Bible was incomplete. Today God communicates to believers through the consistent reading and diligent study of the Bible. The Bible is a spiritual book authored & interpreted by the Spirit of God and communicated to those who are "spiritually" born-again. If you are not a believer then the Bible will seem to you as only a story book filled with foolish fables & old wives tales.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

What is the point to free will?

Free will is a gift from God. It is a blessing. If the Lord wanted robots who obeyed him then it would be so...but He wants man to freewillingly choose him as his God. Therefore, man has two choices of either accepting or rejecting God in his or her lifetime. In eternity there will be God and all those who freely chose Him as their God during their lifetime, they will be living together in perfection in a new heaven and earth wherein dwelleth righteousness- the ones who freewillingly chose to reject God during their lifetime will not be there...that is Gods plan!

The christians of old were martyred not for their beliefs but the fact that they kept making noises about it in a time and place where they were a minority.

Read and study Church history from a Protestant's perspective and you will find that they were killed for what they believed and especially for what they wouldn't believe!
And making noise as a Christian is a direct commandment from God- do you know what the "Great Commission" is?

Pride cometh before a fall, before you preach to others make sure you have all your ducks in a row. If you are going to make prideful statements in writing be prepared to back them up. To paraphrase from Top Gun, Don't write cheques with your mouth your body can't cash. There is always someone faster, smarter, stronger, better educated or just plain luckier.

Did you know that you quoted scripture? Proverbs 16:18 ¶Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
I'm sorry that my posts portray pride. When and if you get to know me you will find out that I'm no prouder than you about somethings we are very passionate about.
Oh, and I probably came across as preaching to you because I'm a preacher!

Be careful where you take your dogma. Or a budhist may run it over with his Karma.

Lol...& I won't be bagging any other religions on this list...several people have already put words in my mouth (not mentioning any names DAN).


Thanks for the comments,

Zed

[Zed]

And this is precisely why these arguments go nowhere. You talk about "God's laws" and "God's ways" with absolute certainty, as if they were an objective, demonstrable entity separate from men's interpretations. Where did they come from? Did God communicate them to you directly and personally? In this case they are the same as your conscience (but mine might be different). Or do you rely on holy writ? In which case you are remarkably selective in what you obey. When was the last time you joined in stoning an adultress? Are you careful not to wear any clothes of mixed fibres? And of course, never eat meat from an animal that isn't cloven-footed and chews the cud...

Yes Mike I do rely soley on holy writ! God has spent the last 10 years of my life convincing me that I can rely on it wholeheartedly. There is more than a lifetime of learning and application in that book!
I've already honestly admitted that I am selective with what I obey at times...like any human being.

As far as the stoning, wearing certain materials, and dietary laws you mentioned- there is a NEW testament now Mike, and those practices are a part of the OLD one! (time doesn't allow me to detail this any further- email me if you want proof?)

Forgive me if I havn't addressed your whole thread...it's much work keeping up with all you guys (I do have a life off my pc )


Zed

[Zed]

I have sooo been trying not to respond to this AGAIN......

However I gave in.

Zed - I would love to live in a world of blissful ignorance that you appear to live in (yes yes - tell me because I don't believe I am the one that is ignorant - ra ra ra ra)
However- Christianity needs to develop a modern thinking.....it still appears to providing a edict that isn't in tune with the modern situation.

Christianity was all well in good - when it was the principal and sole religion comprising a society - HOWEVER it now is essentially a bigotted practise in the multi-deity society we live in now.

Whilst it doesn't condone racism - it considers any other religion a sin? Is this not an oxymoron? Isn't it one and the same?

Christianity didn't become the 'proudest' religion based on the faith of the people, it became so on the blood other less 'militarily strong' societies. It came about through a fear of the church that the people would turn to alternate 'religions'.

God's Way and his Will have been used as cop outs and excuses by those wishing to achieve their own ends for years. It is also an easy excuse to take no accountability for the direction of your own life and ownership of the consquences of your own actions. How many times do you see Prisoners on death row suddenly finding redemption in the Lord?

Consider NZ - who are we to tell the Maori that their beliefs in Tane etc are false? Ohh that's right - they were less educated than us?? Education is a derivative from religious constructs, and was until recent times in the scheme of the human races restricted to those of the Cloth. Why? Because knowledge was and still is power. By restricting who had access to it - the Clergy could better control the masses....

IF their was a God - I would be interested to ask him if he felt our interpretation of 'his way' was accurate. I think you would find his answer would be no. Our time on this planet has largely been a bloody and terrible affair - and again....much is this is done in the name of religion.

As NZ becomes more and more multi-cultural, the diversity of religious beliefs will increase....is this a bad thing? Take Scientology or ChristaDelphianism......are these not more apt because they bring the religious beliefs in to the modern world and time?

I have no doubt that those practising most religions contribute positively to society - however one can still make a positive contribution without being religious - the two are mutually exclusive. As there are non-practising degenerates in society - their are also many practising degenerates (refer the press)

To follow religion and have a belief system that you fully appreciate is admirable - to do so blindly to other ideas/options stupid!

This is also not a personal attack before you start in as per usual....merely a rebut of your Statements........

I prefer CK's approach- where he is happy to converse via email in a rational, open-minded and thought-provoking manner.....you on the other hand, aren't doing any favours for the religious cause

You must also remember - I have never denied God's existence - I am merely asking for more proof

I would rather we take this discussion offline - as it is taking away from this board. my email is wkid_one@xtra.co.nz

Hi Dan,

I read this out aloud to my wife...we had a good old chuckle together.


Man you do have a great way with words, very eloquent at times- you would make an excellent preacher! Interested?


Zed

[Slingshot]

I'm a non-believer, but I'm starting to wonder if there is a god.

When you think about it, how could evolution create a human being that fits so perfectly on a motorbike...I mean our arms have been designed to have just the right lenght to reach the handle bars, we can grip the bars with our perfectly designed hands and we can twist the throttle with our amazing wrists. Our ankles pivot for gear changes and our knees bend so our feet will rest on the footpegs!

How could evolution have created us so perfectly

[SPman]

Aint Fundamentalism great. You can pick out all the bits from a particular book that suit the way you think,then decide that it is the ONLY way to live a life and treat anyone else who doesnt fervently beleive in what you believe, as, somehow, blinded/inferior/sinful/benighted/et al., lacking YOUR SUREFIRE way to redemption. Everyone else is wrong and by God, you'll show them the error of their ways! - not aimed at you in particular, Zed.
Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, etc, even sub sects of the main beliefs......they all get so intense and full of intolerance for any criticism of their beliefs, that many are prepared to kill for it.
They make all the noise and the quiet rational believers just go quietly about their ways, doing good and being lumped in with the loonies for their trouble!
Doesnt seem right, really!
Think I'll become a fundamentalist Code-ite, studying the good books of Twist of the Wrist!

[Ogri]

I've been following this for a couple of days now.

Had a good laugh...............followed by is this guy for real?

Come to the conclusion that he's a tosser and I can't be arsed to follow this anymore - going back to the real world.