Elections are coming up. What are we thinking?

[buggerit]

Percentage of the population was NOT the argument for Māori seats .. and I'm not totally commited to the concept.



Yes - that's correct, and why I'm not totally committed to the Māori seats.

If we abolish them now, the issue is for the future - what might happen if there are NO Pākehā in Parliament, would Pākehā want gauranted Pākehā seats? After all, the belong in this country .. and would have no representation. If the Māori seats are abolished now because "We don't need them" then Pākehā New Zealand would have no argument for Pākehā only seats. .

Im happy with New Zealanders, breed makes no difference to me, same as when I go to doctor,dentist etc, its more to do with ability and
attitude.

[bogan]

If we abolish them now, the issue is for the future - what might happen if there are NO Pākehā in Parliament, would Pākehā want gauranted Pākehā seats? After all, the belong in this country .. and would have no representation. If the Māori seats are abolished now because "We don't need them" then Pākehā New Zealand would have no argument for Pākehā only seats. .

Why the fuck would we need them? Pakeha is simply not a thing to most (or at least some) of us. I will vote for the party doing the best for all New Zealanders; lets forever abolish racially oriented seats and thus de-institutionalise racially segregated voting.

[Banditbandit]

Didn't say all of them did, but being so racially oriented in name (and lets face it, their policies focus on getting the best for the moari race too); some simpletons will vote that way.

Of course the aim is to get the best results for Māori - just as Labour supposedly aims to get the best results for workers ... it is politically naïve to think that a party does not aim to serve the best interests of those they see as their support group ...

So be heard like everyone else, there is no whitey party, no asian party etc etc, and certainly no earmarked seats for such; we are not the color of our skin, .

You are wrong to think it is race-based. The significant difference is not the colour of skin, genes or anything like that. It is culture ... different cultures have different, and legitimate ways of doing things ... our ways are just as legitimate as "whitey" (a term I dislike and never use - except to throw it back at people like you). We have a different worldview and different responses to a trange of situations ..

And I know lots of Pākehā who vote for the Māori Party ...

We want the same things as the rest of Godzone .. a better life, a comfortable life, a better life for our children, a clean environment, fish in the sea to catch, animals to hunt on the land .. able to go to the beach - have a BBQ ... (we just might cook different things on our BBQ) - a health system that caters to our needs, and education system that educates our children so they can get good jobs ...

and we should vote based on what is good for all kiwis

I hope that we all do that - but that is a matter of perspective .. I'm sure that DonKey thinks he is doing things that are good for New Zealand - I disagree and won't vote for him ..

Nobody is talking about ignoring their voice, but we would like it to be from what they think, not the color of their skin.

Good - because there are heaps of people who oppose the Māori Party simply because they hate Māori - they hate us for the colour of our skins ...

[Banditbandit]

Im happy with New Zealanders, breed makes no difference to me, same as when I go to doctor,dentist etc, its more to do with ability and
attitude.

Yes - and we expect different things in terms of ability and attitude ... we are not just looking for a technically and scientifically competent doctor or dentist .. the scientifically technically competent doctors are a product of the western world .. we want more than that. There's a host of cultural issues that you take for granted and don't see - but we experience them because they are behaviours that are foreign to us ..

Did you know that Māori men who go to the doctor with urination problems are 25% LESS likely to be diagnosed with prostate cancer than their Pākehā counterparts .. and then die from the disease ... plenty of other examples

Is it because the doctors don't care about us? Are they simply negligent when it comes to our health ? Are they racist ?

[Banditbandit]

Why the fuck would we need them? Pakeha is simply not a thing to most (or at least some) of us.

If "Pākehā" is not a thing to most of you why is "Māori" a thing for you?

[bogan]

Of course the aim is to get the best results for Māori - just as Labour supposedly aims to get the best results for workers ... it is politically naïve to think that a party does not aim to serve the best interests of those they see as their support group ..



You are wrong to think it is race-based. The significant difference is not the colour of skin, genes or anything like that. It is culture ... different cultures have different, and legitimate ways of doing things ... our ways are just as legitimate as "whitey" (a term I dislike and never use - except to throw it back at people like you). We have a different worldview and different responses to a trange of situations ..

And I know lots of Pākehā who vote for the Māori Party ...

We want the same things as the rest of Godzone .. a better life, a comfortable life, a better life for our children, a clean environment, fish in the sea to catch, animals to hunt on the land .. able to go to the beach - have a BBQ ... (we just might cook different things on our BBQ) - a health system that caters to our needs, and education system that educates our children so they can get good jobs ...



Good - because there are heaps of people who oppose the Māori Party simply because they hate Māori - they hate us for the colour of our skins ...

Yeh, which is why the support group should not be based on race.

As is your right, I've no problem with culture preservation etc, but you need not have special seats/votes to do that; in that it is about the color of your skin, and that taint spreads to how pakeha vote on maori issues too I'm sure. You want the Maori party to be about maori culture only, then take race completely out of the equation; it might also help to stop using the divisionist term 'pakeha' too.

So what? Racism is not an excuse, they are a minority which should be paid no mind.

If "Pākehā" is not a thing to most of you why is "Māori" a thing for you?

The maori party, maori only seats, maori only voting; kinda suprised you have to ask that question.

[Banditbandit]

So what? Racism is not an excuse, they are a minority which should be paid no mind.

Hang about - that doesn't sit with your other posts .. are you saying Māori are a minority and should be ignored?

And when did I use racism as an excuse?

The maori party, maori only seats, maori only voting; kinda suprised you have to ask that question.

That was more in response to some of your other posts - especially the tenor of them ...

[bogan]

Hang about - that doesn't sit with your other posts .. are you saying Māori are a minority and should be ignored?

And when did I use racism as an excuse?





That was more in response to some of your other posts - especially the tenor of them ...

Of course not, just that we don't need to racially orient the voting system to counter a minority of racist voters; the whole point of MMP is to cater to minority's putting their ideas forward, not other minorities putting them down.

You keep bringing it up like it somehow excuses racially oriented voting system, the point that there are racist people in the country is simply irrelevant to the current discussion.

You read to much into tenors and what you want to see, which seems to be racism. I think you're projecting.

In either case, I stand by my point that racially, pakeha is not a thing, and we do not want it to be a thing; maori race (wrt to voting/representation) should also not be a thing, but maori culture should be of course, and it should be something accesible for all kiwis to have a say on. Why do you seem so opposed to all this?

[oldrider]

many of us are also vexed that the party supports national. We (a majority of Maori Party voters)wanted them to go with Labour. I have not voted Māori Party for a couple of elections, and won't this time.

I think that atitude is a hangover from the brainwashing that Labour inflicted upon it's Maori supporters and is a naive mistake that is costing Maori dearly!

The Maori party did not support National ... they supported Maori by acting maturely and getting the best of the situation by pissing "inside" the tent of power!

When they were actually part of Labour and were supposedly in power as the government they got less out of it than they have in a short coalition with National.

IMHO Your attitude toward that does not line up with the rest of your summing up of the situation but then, as my wife tells me, sometimes I get things wrong!

[oldrider]

Of course not, just that we don't need to racially orient the voting system to counter a minority of racist voters; the whole point of MMP is to cater to minority's putting their ideas forward, not other minorities putting them down.

You keep bringing it up like it somehow excuses racially oriented voting system, the point that there are racist people in the country is simply irrelevant to the current discussion.

You read to much into tenors and what you want to see, which seems to be racism. I think you're projecting.

In either case, I stand by my point that racially, pakeha is not a thing, and we do not want it to be a thing; maori race (wrt to voting/representation) should also not be a thing, but maori culture should be of course, and it should be something accesible for all kiwis to have a say on. Why do you seem so opposed to all this?

Pakeha simply means "others" .... anyone other than Maori .... anyone! ... irrispective of skin colour!

[bogan]

Pakeha simply means "others" .... anyone other than Maori .... anyone! ... irrispective of skin colour!

Nzr only others though init? I'd have no problem if we had our 'own' culture developed without maori input, but they are very much a part of nzr culture and such exclusionist terms thus irk me a little bit.

[Banditbandit]

Of course not, just that we don't need to racially orient the voting system to counter a minority of racist voters; the whole point of MMP is to cater to minority's putting their ideas forward, not other minorities putting them down.

You keep bringing it up like it somehow excuses racially oriented voting system, the point that there are racist people in the country is simply irrelevant to the current discussion.

You read to much into tenors and what you want to see, which seems to be racism. I think you're projecting.

In either case, I stand by my point that racially, pakeha is not a thing, and we do not want it to be a thing; maori race (wrt to voting/representation) should also not be a thing, but maori culture should be of course, and it should be something accesible for all kiwis to have a say on. Why do you seem so opposed to all this?

I think we are slightly misunderstanding each other - or maybe talking at cross purposes. I always talk about culture - never race. I'm not sure that we disagree as much as you (and probably me too) seem to think.

I think that atitude is a hangover from the brainwashing that Labour inflicted upon it's Maori supporters and is a naive mistake that is costing Maori dearly!

The Maori party did not support National ... they supported Maori by acting maturely and getting the best of the situation by pissing "inside" the tent of power!

When they were actually part of Labour and were supposedly in power as the government they got less out of it than they have in a short coalition with National.

IMHO Your attitude toward that does not line up with the rest of your summing up of the situation but then, as my wife tells me, sometimes I get things wrong!

I agree that Labour shat on Māori and the Māori Party - I think the point would be that most of the supporters of the Māori Party "lean left" as it were and so the natural coalition is with Labour, not national. I do agree that there is some brainwashing here too .. but hey, that' the nature of the beast ... (And I repeat - I haven't voted Māori party for a while and I will not do so this time).

Nzr only others though init? I'd have no problem if we had our 'own' culture developed without maori input, but they are very much a part of nzr culture and such exclusionist terms thus irk me a little bit.

Hmmm .. in my experience I find Māori culture to be inclusive, but Pākehā culture to be exclusive.

[oldrider]

Hmmm .. in my experience I find Māori culture to be inclusive, but Pākehā culture to be exclusive.

Would that God the gift to give us, to see our selves as others see us!

The word "Empathy" springs to mind.

[bogan]

I think we are slightly misunderstanding each other - or maybe talking at cross purposes. I always talk about culture - never race. I'm not sure that we disagree as much as you (and probably me too) seem to think.



I agree that Labour shat on Māori and the Māori Party - I think the point would be that most of the supporters of the Māori Party "lean left" as it were and so the natural coalition is with Labour, not national. I do agree that there is some brainwashing here too .. but hey, that' the nature of the beast ... (And I repeat - I haven't voted Māori party for a while and I will not do so this time).



Hmmm .. in my experience I find Māori culture to be inclusive, but Pākehā culture to be exclusive.

Yet the voting system is set up to make race a relevant point, how can you not be completely against that?

Wrong, the definitions of both words explain exactly why that is. Just what is your idea of pakeha culture anyway?

[Banditbandit]

Yet the voting system is set up to make race a relevant point, how can you not be completely against that?

I see it slightly differently - I wouldsay the voting system allows for culture to be a relevant point ..

Wrong, the definitions of both words explain exactly why that is. Just what is your idea of pakeha culture anyway?

I get your point - but I didn't mean Māori as a race was inclusive, I meant Māori culture is inclusive. Māori culture makes room for people from other cultures to participate. I mean the word as a culture not a race. "Race" is a null concept.

My idea of Pākehā culture? That's huge ... but I see it all around me .. I see that Pākehā culture does not make room for other cultures to participate - it's "do it our way or not at all"