Elections are coming up. What are we thinking?

[oldrider]

I'd love to agree that debt was the problem, but I don't. If you decide to inject free money into the system in order to "balance the books", as well as offer a full debt amnesty and then start again, you're going to end up printing money for money's sake. If you hold the patents etc... then you can charge what you like. You can then influence who you like to do what you like. The same malpractice will exist.

Looking on the brighter side, you will end up with enough money for everyone to carry on being a rampant consumer. Resources run out. You wish to speed this up? We're wasting a fuckload of resources (including pointless jobs, I'd rather people took up underwater basket weaving as they'd be producing something). It kinda needs to stop for many many many reasons, not limited to, environmental issues, poverty, war, disease etc...

Not being rude, but I don't see that much of a change where money still exists in the frame. I reckon it'd be much easier to use the current and recognised process in order to elect a party that would game the system to the benefit of an entire country i.e. we build what we choose to build, we fix what we choose to fix and how we choose to fix it, we educate how we choose, but more importantly, we charge what we like for those goods and services within NZ borders and then report that to a bank account. If you are in control of the pricing, you can change the price of any good or service or tax or infringement notice etc... to hit any target you like by the end of the year.

I'm prepared to carry on doing what I'm doing if the majority will in order to have a shot at instigating real change.

Even with the most perfect money system (or not) many of those problems will still be there because they are human problems, it is who we are as a species!

Take that away and we don't need a system we would cease to exist!

The system we have now is working OK apart from the diversion of the cost and control of new money ... shift that away from the private banking institutions!

The current established reserve bank could take over the responsibility for issuing and cancelling new money and leave the rest to run as it does now!

A relatively simple task made difficult by the people with their hands on the steering wheel ... like prising the bottle from the hands of an alcoholic!

The difficult part is convincing those (the multitude) in the community that they need to change the system and how to do it and why!

Look at history ... it has always been the same ... the simplist things we all know about today were the hardest things to change in their time!

Like hand washing ... pasturising milk etc etc etc etc etc! ... We don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water!

[bogan]

Of course we established which, because it can be either or both... you didn't like that answer because you need it to be one of two things . It's an asset or a liability depending on how you choose to value it at that very moment in time in order to achieve the desired financial economic outcome. Still fuckin hilarious that you can't grasp the concept.

No it can be either or both. But both are a liability, money printing devalues the dollar and is not sustainable long term as it creates no wealth. Increasing taxes on common goods (essentially massive GST increases) will not create wealth either. It's a concept easily grasped, but so are the points that it is a really shit idea; something you seem unable to grasp.

[mashman]

No it can be either or both. But both are a liability, money printing devalues the dollar and is not sustainable long term as it creates no wealth. Increasing taxes on common goods (essentially massive GST increases) will not create wealth either. It's a concept easily grasped, but so are the points that it is a really shit idea; something you seem unable to grasp.

I grasp your concept all too easily having lived it for decades. Tis you that can't make the leap son.

[mashman]

Even with the most perfect money system (or not) many of those problems will still be there because they are human problems, it is who we are as a species!

Take that away and we don't need a system we would cease to exist!

The system we have now is working OK apart from the diversion of the cost and control of new money ... shift that away from the private banking institutions!

The current established reserve bank could take over the responsibility for issuing and cancelling new money and leave the rest to run as it does now!

A relatively simple task made difficult by the people with their hands on the steering wheel ... like prising the bottle from the hands of an alcoholic!

The difficult part is convincing those (the multitude) in the community that they need to change the system and how to do it and why!

Look at history ... it has always been the same ... the simplist things we all know about today were the hardest things to change in their time!

Like hand washing ... pasturising milk etc etc etc etc etc! ... We don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water!

True, many of the non-financially related ones will... however given that out behaviour is modified by the existence of money in the first place, I'd venture that a lot of those problems would wane. Yup I am more than happy to accept that other problems may take their place, MAY.

Who's propaganda handbook did you get that little ditty out of? The grumpy bastards guide to defending ones stash? We ain't all that precious are we?

The system we have now is failing.

To what end? Debt free money in todays world would produce what? Other than the rampant consumerism that I mentioned to Stephen earlier... which will only end up badly. Think longer term, I mean, pretend that we have a future lol.

in which case leave them with their hands on the wheel, give them a bottle and whilst they're sleeping remove the car.

True, there will be some convincing needed. Although I have to say most of those that I have approached with the idea convert within minutes. Once upon a time in Nelson a man decided to run for mayor. He stood up and announced an R.B.E. approach and received 350+ votes from an electorate that had never heard of an R.B.E. before. He explained it to them in minutes and they understood. The difficult part, as bogan et al highlight, is the individual letting it go. Fortunately the thinking part of the community will render their opinions moot :devil:.

But they did and do still change

Propaganda again? Given that the entire system is based on confidence, I fail to see how the baby or the bath water would be thrown out in a society that values both as 2 of the most invaluable resources on the planet.

[bluninja]

Of course we established which, because it can be either or both... you didn't like that answer because you need it to be one of two things . It's an asset or a liability depending on how you choose to value it at that very moment in time in order to achieve the desired financial economic outcome. Still fuckin hilarious that you can't grasp the concept.

Wow, it takes Bogan for you to remove one of the hands from your dick

An interesting aside...and sort of heading back to topic.....Mr Slater is heading to court to stop the hacker from drip feeding more of his personal stuff and the media printing it. According to the media he's not saying it's false or made up, but that it's personal stuff quote from NZ Herald...."Slater has filed papers claiming further exposure of information from his emails and social media accounts would inflict a huge personal toll.".....errrrr...should this be on the Nicky Hager thread?? What was I thinking

[bogan]

I grasp your concept all too easily having lived it for decades. Tis you that can't make the leap son.

Perhaps you can explain how inflation or taxation will increase wealth in nz long term then.

During election run up I think we all have a duty to demand solid answers to questions of government, simplistic explanations aimed at the person instead or dealing with unapplicable abstract concepts/examples/hypotheticals should be treated with nothing but contempt. We can evolve a higher class of politician if we deserve it.

[mashman]

Perhaps you can explain how inflation or taxation will increase wealth in nz long term then.

During election run up I think we all have a duty to demand solid answers to questions of government, simplistic explanations aimed at the person instead or dealing with unapplicable abstract concepts/examples/hypotheticals should be treated with nothing but contempt. We can evolve a higher class of politician if we deserve it.

Using what? The current financial system or under an R.B.E. Coz if it's under an R.B.E. inflation and taxation will have fuck all to do with the wealth of the nation.

bwaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa... I'd be highly amused to see a solid answer come from any political party.

[mashman]

Wow, it takes Bogan for you to remove one of the hands from your dick

I only remove my hands from my dick to play with my mangina.

[bogan]

Using what? The current financial system or under an R.B.E. Coz if it's under an R.B.E. inflation and taxation will have fuck all to do with the wealth of the nation.

bwaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa... I'd be highly amused to see a solid answer come from any political party.

Using whatever the million dollar hammer example is applicable for generating wealth for the nation. After all, that is the whole idea behind the example is it not?

[mashman]

Using whatever the million dollar hammer example is applicable for generating wealth for the nation. After all, that is the whole idea behind the example is it not?

Nah, the idea behind the example is to show that NZ can value any item within NZ borders at any value that NZ wishes to value it at. If you are in control of the value of everything in NZ, you could replace the hammers with dog shit, or sand, or artichokes etc...

Irrespective, the value of the hammer/dog shit/sand/artichoke is set for 1 purpose and one purpose only... to appease those who still live under a financial system that expect every country to produce GNI/GDP/GNP etc... figures.

[Brian d marge]

So you want a system thats in equlibrium so that consumerism doesnt fk things up
The system would have to be self regulating or out of the control of a few
Where all could avail themselves to their needs up to a point
Those systems have rather successful in communities up to around 200 people then they tend to break down
Im not sure why but i think its due to administrative issues

[mashman]

So you want a system thats in equlibrium so that consumerism doesnt fk things up
The system would have to be self regulating or out of the control of a few
Where all could avail themselves to their needs up to a point
Those systems have rather successful in communities up to around 200 people then they tend to break down
Im not sure why but i think its due to administrative issues

Sort of, yeah. The idea being that resources are earmarked for education, healthcare, infrastructure blah blah blah, the necessity's of life, before they are made available to joe public in order for them to do their thing. It's what currently happens, yet it's open to the highest bidder and for personal gain instead of happening to the benefit of the "larger" community.
There are tonnes of reasons why such a thing wouldn't work, but I bet the major reason is financial and done in the name of prosperity. That another community suffers is of no concern. Shame really.

[bogan]

Nah, the idea behind the example is to show that NZ can value any item within NZ borders at any value that NZ wishes to value it at. If you are in control of the value of everything in NZ, you could replace the hammers with dog shit, or sand, or artichokes etc...

Irrespective, the value of the hammer/dog shit/sand/artichoke is set for 1 purpose and one purpose only... to appease those who still live under a financial system that expect every country to produce GNI/GDP/GNP etc... figures.

Haha, changed your tune since we first discussed such a stupid idea, good to see you can still be taught something though.

Gdp can (and would in such a situation of obvious number fiddling) be valued using produced goods value in a different currency. So the hammer idea is just bullshit talk which addresses no valueable point, so it and its proponents should be ignored.

[mashman]

Haha, changed your tune since we first discussed such a stupid idea, good to see you can still be taught something though.

Gdp can (and would in such a situation of obvious number fiddling) be valued using produced goods value in a different currency. So the hammer idea is just bullshit talk which addresses no valueable point, so it and its proponents should be ignored.

I fail to see where I have changed my tune, position or anything? Enlighten me.

WTF are you talking about? All numbers are fiddled, I mean seasonally adjusted, I mean have outliers removed, I mean calculated using probability instead of actual etfc... I'm talking about managing the total value of human activity so that it hits every single financial target that is set with absolute certainty. WE value the activity and feed the monetary value into the financial system. That activity will be outcome driven without financial constraint.

[bogan]

I fail to see where I have changed my tune, position or anything? Enlighten me.

WTF are you talking about? All numbers are fiddled, I mean seasonally adjusted, I mean have outliers removed, I mean calculated using probability instead of actual etfc... I'm talking about managing the total value of human activity so that it hits every single financial target that is set with absolute certainty. WE value the activity and feed the monetary value into the financial system. That activity will be outcome driven without financial constraint.

You know, all this issue dodging, empty words, and failure to learn/comprehend, in addition to an oversized sense of your theories worth; has made me realise something. You're a politician! Just one whose ideas are too stupid to gain a following Thanks mashy, I needed some more faith in the electoral process after watching the last 'debate'.

PS: google is fun

Dunno how they'd deal with it, but under an RBE it could be as simple as fuckin with how much things "cost" i.e. a hammer made locally could "cost" $1 million and the "profit" from that could go to paying off the debt.

Now, will you show us your political stripes and try and make out you meant something different? or will you own your fuck up?