Tell us the politicians you like/dislike

[Ocean1]

now who's being selective?

Guilty. I've selected the simple facts.

If what you are saying is correct it still ignores issues yet to be faced in this country: what do you do with cars when you get there?

You park the fucking things. At which time they're generating zero environmental contaminants, unlike the buses and trains now turning around to do the return trip mostly empty, using not only far more fuel in doing so than the car would have but far more environmentally detrimental fuel to boot.

When it comes to generally accepted environmental dogma: Don't, it's mostly wrong.

How far out in the burbclaves do you have to go for housing? what does it cost to run a vehicle now? What bout when petrol is $2.50 a litre in two years, and $5 a litre in ten years?

As far as the individual punter wants. If it becomes less attractive to commute then quite simply fewer people would wish to do so, creating opportunities for alternatives not currently viable.

How much appalling suburban sprawl do we want? How much of that sprawl is on land that could be growing something useful?

What? High density housing makes MORE land available for agriculture. Not less. In fact that's one of the key reasons the planet can support twice the number of humans it did a century ago. Cities support half the worlds population and take up less than 3% of the worlds land. Urban people consume far less energy and affect natural environmental systems less than their rural cousins.

If you want to save the world build 50 story apartments. Not a popular green concept, I'll grant, but that's exactly the point: most of the fuckwits can't count and wouldn't know an environmental risk if it bit them in the arse.

I'm not saying your example is wrong, I am saying you are looking through too narrow an aperture. I acknowledge my own small contribution with all the greenfields subdivision work I do. (hey it funds my KB and Pascalls Jet Plane addiction)

You'd probably approve of my current abode's environmental footprint. You'd be typically and massively wrong, but I get to chose my vices just as you do. My biggest regret is not having the time or skill to turn my apples into palatable cider.

[mashman]

Best you fuck off to live in Eketahuna then, you could commute by bicycle from there to Danniverke and save the world.

Fuckwit.

... coz that what it's all about? Myopic fuckknuckle.

[avgas]

Nobody actually voted for Muldoon ... they simply ticked the wrong box and fucked the country!

A vote for anyone is a vote for them. Even if all your trying to do is stop the other guy - your vote is your right to relinquish power to someone else. If you voted for them - you are giving them the right to represent you.
Muldoon was elected by an unthinking majority. Most of our PM's are.

[Ocean1]

... coz that what it's all about? Myopic fuckknuckle.

So, to recap:

All businesses fault. If they didn't have an irrational need to congregate in cities, people could walk or cycle to work.

And paraphrase: Teh evel New World Order business conglomeration is forcing the sheeple into herds, where their natural inclination to ride eighteenth century machines to work and back is thwarted by their much closer proximity to their place of employment.

Hence:

Best you fuck off to live in Eketahuna then, you could commute by bicycle from there to Danniverke and save the world.

Which I agree was overly verbose.

Fuckwit.

Covered it amply.

[Brian d marge]

hahahaha

thought that would be the argument

Yes if you run a fleet of buses and nobody uses them , of course your Ferrari is more fuel efficient

but if you run your transport at or near full capacity then, no way will a car be as efficient and especially if your generate your energy i

in an efficient manner

I doubt cities such as Tokyo or London could even function without the rail system.


IMHO , ( Tin Hat on!) I suspect the pushing of a road infrastructure is a petrodollar issue , ya dont want efficient systems that dont use the might petrodollar

I also wonder at NZ insistence on a road network . When I was in NZ in April, I was shocked at the price of gasoline , As the yen and NZ dollar are nearly one to one. Japan is much cheaper for gasoline.

I also wondered , Where do people get the money for the cars that I saw , big 4x4 , holdens etc never really saw small 600cc cars even in the city

Some people must be spending a bit of coin on gasoline and can they afford it ??? They must be doing alright if they can afford it !

Just a thought

Stephen

[oldrider]

Muldoon was elected by an unthinking majority. Most of our PM's are.

True! ... Caucus! .... How unthinking is that?

[Ocean1]

hahahaha

thought that would be the argument

Yes if you run a fleet of buses and nobody uses them , of course your Ferrari is more fuel efficient

but if you run your transport at or near full capacity then, no way will a car be as efficient and especially if your generate your energy in an efficient manner

I doubt cities such as Tokyo or London could even function without the rail system.


IMHO , ( Tin Hat on!) I suspect the pushing of a road infrastructure is a petrodollar issue , ya dont want efficient systems that dont use the might petrodollar

I also wonder at NZ insistence on a road network . When I was in NZ in April, I was shocked at the price of gasoline , As the yen and NZ dollar are nearly one to one. Japan is much cheaper for gasoline.

I also wondered , Where do people get the money for the cars that I saw , big 4x4 , holdens etc never really saw small 600cc cars even in the city

Some people must be spending a bit of coin on gasoline and can they afford it ??? They must be doing alright if they can afford it !

Just a thought

Stephen

But rail and bus systems don't run anywhere near full in NZ. So that's the end of that argument.

Also, electricity for trains, (and only Wgt and now Ak are electric) is not produced in a particularly efficient manner. It's not from base load generation, it's more likely to be dirty coal or gas.

Modern cars are hugely more efficient than those most environmental agencies took their figures from, whereas Bus and rail diesels are archaic designs so old environmental activism hadn't even been invented.

NZ's "insistence" on road transport has fuck all to do with evel petrodollar driven political machinations, it's driven by the extremely wrinkly geography and low population density. Comparing it to Londen and Tokyo is fucking absurd, they're the most densly populated cities on the planet, both as flat as a pancake.

So the best way to spend your environmental dollar in NZ is to reduce car congestion, which the loony tunes green brigade translate into "fixing auto-pollution by building more roads". And encouraging the new, small high speed diesel cars, which the current vehicle road used charges heavily penalise. Again: they've got no fucking idea.

[mashman]

So, to recap:

And paraphrase: Teh evel New World Order business conglomeration is forcing the sheeple into herds, where their natural inclination to ride eighteenth century machines to work and back is thwarted by their much closer proximity to their place of employment.

Hence:

Which I agree was overly verbose.

Covered it amply.

You can paraphrase all you like, but given that you wank on about the efficiency of transport and then in the next breath defend the inefficiency of the current employment environment in the name of business doesn't give me confidence in your ability to paraphrase the instruction manual for a fuckin lawnmower let alone give any confidence that you actually know what you're talking about.

You can class it as overly verbose all you want, doesn't make it so at the end of the recipient. But cheers for the lulz.

[Ocean1]

You can paraphrase all you like, but given that you wank on about the efficiency of transport and then in the next breath defend the inefficiency of the current employment environment in the name of business doesn't give me confidence in your ability to paraphrase the instruction manual for a fuckin lawnmower let alone give any confidence that you actually know what you're talking about.

You can class it as overly verbose all you want, doesn't make it so at the end of the recipient. But cheers for the lulz.

Fuckwit....

[Swoop]

Would that "lunatic fringe" be from the same general rabble that have warned us about ozone depletion, rising CO2 levels, unsustainable tropical hardwoods, atmospheric nuclear testing, dioxin contamination, the nonsense of curing traffic congestion by building more roads, international market resistance to GE produce, Japanese whaling and many other inconvenient truths?

Seems to many of us that those lunatic views often become part of the mainstream consciousness, so wouldn't 'visionary fringe' be a more apt description?

The Lunatic Fringe = NZ green party.

[mashman]

Fuckwit....

Artichoke.

[Brian d marge]

NZ's "insistence" on road transport has fuck all to do with evel petrodollar driven political machinations, it's driven by the extremely wrinkly geography and low population density. Comparing it to Londen and Tokyo is fucking absurd, they're the most densly populated cities on the planet, both as flat as a pancake.


Go and have a look at the map "Tokyo" , Japan is even more wrinkly than NZ , even more earthquake prone

Yes its high density , thats why I used them as an example , they would cease to function if it wasnt for rail, ( what Im saying here is that well used public transport is better.)

Auckland is heading down that same path , as is, to a certain extent Wellington


"IF " NZ enjoyed the same level of public transport as we do here in Japan , you would see quite a decline in car ownership, I believe.

London is a little different as the pricing has made Ryan air look more attractive ( if thats possible )

Yes I do think its the evil petrodollar at work. I still think that the modern train system is , for hauling bulk goods and even for inter city goods transport, one of, if not the best solution.

When I talk of railways I mean modern railways, not the cesspool that NZR is/was


Stephen

[Ocean1]

Go and have a look at the map "Tokyo" , Japan is even more wrinkly than NZ , even more earthquake prone

Is this the Tokyo on the Kanto plains? The largest piece of flat land in the country?

Yes its high density , thats why I used them as an example , they would cease to function if it wasnt for rail, ( what Im saying here is that well used public transport is better.)

So, about as different as NZ as it's possible to get?

A pointless comparison then.

"IF " NZ enjoyed the same level of public transport as we do here in Japan , you would see quite a decline in car ownership, I believe.

And "IF" NZ cities enjoyed the same level of funding that cities 100 times the size do you may be right. As they don't it a bit pointless comparing them, innit?

Yes I do think its the evil petrodollar at work.

So a resource overpriced by secret political deals is the reason everyone isn't using alternative transport.

Right.

I still think that the modern train system is , for hauling bulk goods and even for inter city goods transport, one of, if not the best solution.

Best in what regard? Because you say so? Not economically, not with current technology and currently available resources. And as I said, not environmentally, not until you make them full.

Sorry dude, until you get cities a fucking sight larger and more dense than Ak or Wgtn metro rail systems don't make any sort of sense. Once you have a ring rail system that runs non-stop then maybe. If you built the rail corridor and station spaces into your long-term town planning and budget from scratch. Unlikely, for an asset that costs far more than it's worth until you reach a couple of million pop, at minimum. What Wgtn currently has costs more than taking the car, and that's subsidised to fuck.

[avgas]

Is this the Tokyo on the Kanto plains? The largest piece of flat land in the country?
And "IF" NZ cities enjoyed the same level of funding that cities 100 times the size do you may be right. As they don't it a bit pointless comparing them, innit?
Best in what regard? Because you say so? Not economically, not with current technology and currently available resources. And as I said, not environmentally, not until you make them full.
Sorry dude, until you get cities a fucking sight larger and more dense than Ak or Wgtn metro rail systems don't make any sort of sense. Once you have a ring rail system that runs non-stop then maybe. If you built the rail corridor and station spaces into your long-term town planning and budget from scratch. Unlikely, for an asset that costs far more than it's worth until you reach a couple of million pop, at minimum. What Wgtn currently has costs more than taking the car, and that's subsidised to fuck.

Just to sit in the middle of this - I have to admit, in the countries that have had great rail systems......there is one cost which balances the whole lot out. Inefficiencies.

Taking 10 million people are getting them all to work on time via one transport system (road or whatever) is why cities stagnate. To use Japan as an example - Kyoto is a fantastic city, I would love to live there......as a retiree. The business infrastructure isn't there because the transport infrastructure isn't there. Thus business is moved out of town, and many people own cars. NZ cities face the same problem. Tokyo on the other hand continues to grow as a business hub, not just because people can get around easily. If people can get around easily - they move there.

In China it is the same with comparisons between even Shanghai and Beijing. Both cities are of similar size - but more businesses are starting in Shanghai. Because no one can stand Beijing 4 hour traffic jams.

The car is not that expensive in NZ because the train is. If you had everyone taking the train - the car would seem ridiculously overpriced. You would also have to change the mentality of 1.5 million people (in Auckland). Which is tough even on the scale of New York or Tokyo. Fact is we missed the prime opportunity with rail 40+ years ago. It will take us another 40 years for it to come back.
As mentioned earlier - I think there is a middle ground where we consider all options. Relying on cars alone will stagnate NZ's growth.......it always has.

(Not going to get into the debate of growth being good/bad for NZ - assume for the sake of this argument that growth = good.......because if growth = bad, you shouldn't even be fixing the roads as they are, you should be digging them up and riding horses).

NZ rail used to be a world leader and in 100 years we have lost that.

[mada]

Can add Steven Joyce to the smarmy arrogant fuckwit list too...

Let's his true colours show on this debate. I thought Judith Collins was an arrogant smarmy bully, imagine this dick as PM when Key eventually hands over the reigns?

http://www.3news.co.nz/Debate-Grant-...8/Default.aspx