11 September - 4 years on

**Lou Girardin** · 14th September 2005, 16:20

Originally Posted by SARGE

bring back Napalm and WP..

Mike.. i KNOW the extremists mindset.. the only way to get to the point here is scare the living bejesus out of them.. make it more costly for them to act than it is worth,... target the families (great habib.. you can hide, but your mom's address is...xxx) target the basic survival nessessities, food water etc..starve them out.. yes.. thats extreme..i know that .. thats the only way to bring these cunts to the table

Fighting fire with fire makes us better than them, how?

**SARGE** · 14th September 2005, 16:25

Originally Posted by Lou Girardin

Fighting fire with fire makes us better than them, how?

dont make us better Lou.. i never advocated taking the high road... just get it over with and send the message that if you poke the bear, you are going to get bitten

who is the next target? ... Melbourne? Sydney? Wellington? Auckland?

**Lou Girardin** · 14th September 2005, 16:35

I prefer to be better than the terrorist scum of the world. I think most of NZ does too. That's why we aren't a target.

**mstriumph** · 14th September 2005, 16:47

have just read thru this thread

--- am sad that it has degenerated from something quite touching, that everyone supported ....to the place it now seems to be

it could be good if peoples go back and re-read the start of the thread before continuing with this ....mebbe get back into the spirit of the original postings?

**Waylander** · 14th September 2005, 21:22

Originally Posted by mstriumph

have just read thru this thread

--- am sad that it has degenerated from something quite touching, that everyone supported ....to the place it now seems to be

it could be good if peoples go back and re-read the start of the thread before continuing with this ....mebbe get back into the spirit of the original postings?

It's my fault. Just couldn't hold back when I read what-his-name's post earlier.

I appoligize again Sarge.

**MikeL** · 15th September 2005, 00:02

Well, I make no apology for contributing to the "degeneration" of this thread, and I stand by everything I have written.
Sarge, you wrote in your first post "Politics aside, i hold my brother Soldiers, Sailors, and Marines in my heart every day, moreso on 11 September..." If you put politics aside, what is there to disagree about? The personal sacrifice, the pain, the grieving hearts - no decent human being can fail to be moved by these tragedies. But to question the political decisions which have brought about those sufferings is seen by some people as in some way diminishing those sacrifices and those tragedies. Not so...
Have you read the 1914-18 War Poets? I can't read Wilfred Owen or Siegfried Sassoon without tears coming to my eyes. Newsreel footage of the Vietnam War has a similar effect. Every man killed, gassed, blinded or maimed was a martyr to some policy decision made hundreds or thousands of miles away, by middle-aged men in comfortable arm-chairs sipping whisky and smoking cigars. Surely the question of whether the politicians' motives and justifications were good or bad is directly relevant to each of these individual tragedies?
The fact that you choose to be a soldier and trust the competence, good judgement and ethical behaviour of those in power because it is part of your job description doesn't mean that those of us who are not bound by the same rules are demeaning you when we criticise your leaders and their policies. We are actually on your side...
You may have inferred from my posts that I am anti-American. If you define that as not supporting current American policies then I have to plead guilty. But let me tell you this:
I have been to Washington DC 3 times, and every time I have stood before the Lincoln Memorial, or the Jefferson Memorial, or been to the National Archives, and read the words written by the founders of your nation, I have been moved to tears by the ideals that inspired those men. There is nothing in human history more noble or more inspiring than the principles of justice and equality on which the U.S.A. was founded. They represent the culmination of 2,500 years of political and social progress that started with Athenian democracy.
For a long while it seemed that in the struggle to live up to those ideals America would eventually be triumphant. Somewhere along the way those of us who had looked to the U.S. as a shining beacon of democracy, justice and hope became disillusioned. Why? It would take too long to explain, but the word "arrogance" would figure predominantly.

And what, I wonder, would George Washington, Thomas Jefferson or Abraham Lincoln have thought about the invasion of Iraq...?

**SARGE** · 15th September 2005, 00:25

Originally Posted by Waylander

It's my fault. Just couldn't hold back when I read what-his-name's post earlier.

I appoligize again Sarge.

i think this started going downhill in the late 50's region somewhere..

you all know me as someone who isnt afraid to wallow into a political debate with both barrels blazing.. i really enjoy a spirited discourse.. if i am wrong .. i admit it..if i feel i am right or justified.. i will hold my ground like a mountain (that attitude has caused me no end of drama in my life.. i assure you)

this isnt about Politics.. this isnt about religion.. this is about 3000+ people who died just for going to work.. this is about ordinary people doing extraordinary things, both good and evil

yes i have a small prejudice agains Muslim extremists.. get inside my head after 1/2 litre of Single Malt and im sure you will have no doubts as to why. i also have an Iraqi mate that lives across the street.. when i moved in.. he saw me unpacking my American flag and he came over and introduced himself. we talked for hours and from one John Smith to another.. i think we understood each other .. the Ordinary Iraqi citizen is much like us.. just along for the ride while leaders play russian roulette with our kid's future.

i dont have a problem with joe schmo on the block... i dont hate Muslims.. i hate EXTREMISTS.. in any form.. Muslim, Christian, microsoft, Mac, Harley, Apprilia, Labour, National whatever..( athough the "Banana Republic" shit i see in the BOP is cracking me the fuck up..more on that later..)

there is no ONE TRUTH.. mine is different to yours.. your truth is different to his..whatever helps you sleep.

Originally Posted by sarge

i didnt start this thread to get into the politics of it.. i just wanted to remember those who died and those who were involved..
if thats too much for all of you than i can just delete this thread, as it has been poisoned off of its original intent

**Swoop** · 20th December 2005, 19:20

Originally Posted by Lou Girardin

I prefer to be better than the terrorist scum of the world. I think most of NZ does too. That's why we aren't a target.

Yeah, right... "we're NOT a target".

Look at the make up of NZ society today... Cells are already established here.

This is the mindset that led so many kiwis to their graves during so many conflicts - mainly by the class structure of the british ("Lord xyz - you can be a general, be a good chap and go and lead those men over there").

**SARGE** · 20th December 2005, 22:57

Originally Posted by Swoop

Yeah, right... "we're NOT a target".

Look at the make up of NZ society today... Cells are already established here.
.

i agree wholeheartedly Swoop.. and the sad part is that the higher-ups have turned a blind eye to it because , in thier mind, there is no way NZ could be targeted because of your politics ( or lack thereof)

bet your ass there are groups who agree with them at the very least here... wouldnt take much to recruit a few Kiwi suicide bombers

( Friday night at the Viaduct Harbor when there is a bigassed cruise ship docked... right by the water taxi stand.. BOOOOOM!!.. another 30 seconds later under the big black boat as everyone runs away..another 45 seconds after the first at the other end..car bomb in the big parking structure 10 minutes after the initial blast as everyone is trying to get out...500 dead.. 3000 wounded with a loss of 4 terrorists..pretty good return on investment..)

**N4CR** · 20th December 2005, 23:26

We didn't illegally invade a country did we though?

Nope... no jihadin' needed here.

Hell we ain't even a very christian country, so I don't think the Koran would cover us in its little rule section that the extremists seem to (ab)use.

**SARGE** · 21st December 2005, 06:26

Originally Posted by tristank

We didn't illegally invade a country did we though?

neither did Bali

and if you will look at the start of a democraticlly elected government that is starting to form in Iraq..you will start to see that it was for the best anyway. the Iraqis are going to be better off for it in the long run. nothing is ever made better without a bit of blood, sweat and tears.

read the book " America's Secret War'.. this war started 25 years ago...this is just another battle in it. there are some Geo-Politics going on here that you and I will never know about. some of the shit i was involved with in the early 80's is just starting to come to light now..some stuff wont be known for another 50 years

Originally Posted by tristank

Hell we ain't even a very christian country, so I don't think the Koran would cover us in its little rule section that the extremists seem to (ab)use.

an 'Infidel' is anyone that does not accept Allah as the one true gawd..that includeds athiests and agnostics alike..so yes.. it applies to you also.

putting your head in the sand is a great way to get shot in the ass

**Grahameeboy** · 21st December 2005, 07:15

I think it is important to remember that the September 11 attack was not just about America. The attack was on the World Trade Centre and more non-Americans were killed......American, English, Gerrman etc, they are all people but the attack was on the World.
Probably hard to believe but America was probably the easiest of the 'Big' nations to attack in this manner.......England has not suffered and from my understanding Bali was really about Indonesia....remember terriorists are like mercenaries.
Anyway, it's Christmas and time to think about things closer to home eh?

**Grahameeboy** · 21st December 2005, 07:18

Originally Posted by Grahameeboy

I think it is important to remember that the September 11 attack was not just about America. The attack was on the World Trade Centre and more non-Americans were killed......American, English, Gerrman etc, they are all people but the attack was on the World.
Probably hard to believe but America was probably the easiest of the 'Big' nations to attack in this manner.......England has not suffered and from my understanding Bali was really about Indonesia....remember terriorists are like mercenaries.
Anyway, it's Christmas and time to think about things closer to home eh?

Should have qualified...yes there were the backpack bombings but England has not suffered a Sept 11 event and sad to say that we have been used to terriorist attacks...