11 September - 4 years on

[WRT]

Tibbets, the pilot, is still alive and well. A couple of others were interviewed in August about their part. No one died of radiation sickness, although I think one committed suicide.

Curious, in the Auckland War museum the said that the men all died . . . was in there about two weeks ago, the section on Hiroshima makes for some sobering reading . . .

[SimJen]

Three of them are still alive, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4743061.stm

[MikeL]

Apart from wrecking two planes, two (or more) buildings and killing a shit-load of people WHAT was the 'intended purpose'??

I can't speak for the persons responsible, but it's a likely bet that their intention was to inflict severe damage on a country which they considered their enemy. Does anyone doubt that they achieved this aim?

[Lou Girardin]

What a waste, they should do as the old corrupt regime in Iraq did - slaughter them at home and save the transport bill (or con a lot of them to commit suicide).

Saddam never managed to kill as many as the Yanks have in the last two years. But he did give his people the highest standard of living in the middle east. At least until Gulf War 1, that is.
And after all that, Bush and Co now accept that Iraq will be have to be an Islamic Republic (the same system as Iran). All that death and destruction to achieve nothing.

[MikeL]

not enough Mike.. maybe if its Eye For an Eye we should get creative.. lets just see how Oz reacts if Melbourne gets hit as threatened..

Eye for an Eye might work in the Old Testament and in Hollywood westerns, but it's hardly an intelligent way to secure a long-term solution.

[MikeL]

All that death and destruction to achieve nothing.

And 53,000 Americans went to Vietnam and came home in body bags. Their widows and children rightly honour their dead but this terrible sacrifice can only mean something if it made the world, or their part of it, a better, safer place. Learning a lesson from the bitter experience would at least have provided some consolation.

[scumdog]

I can't speak for the persons responsible, but it's a likely bet that their intention was to inflict severe damage on a country which they considered their enemy. Does anyone doubt that they achieved this aim?

Oh they did that alright - for why????

Has it improved their lot? nope, they're dead. Has it improved their countrymens lot? Nope, even more of them dead and the rest in a war-torn country (well even MORE war torn than they're use to).

The only thing it has really achieved is to create a lot of colourful pictures on your fish'n'chip wrappers.

[Biff]

Does anyone doubt that they achieved this aim?

Erm - yeah – I do. At least in the medium to long term. Let's be brutally frank here, more Americans have possible just died (I hope not - but maybe) following the tragic events in the New Orleans area following the recent storms, and more people die every year from one off natural diasters and terrorist activities in countries that we don't hear so much about.

Not taking anything away from what did happen on September 11th, but the US population are nothing but patriotic, hardy and resolute in their beliefs. While these tragic events had a definite effect on the US psyche I don’t believe that the terrorists have achieved any real aim, other than making people hate them more, cause the public to (wrongly) question the Muslim faith even more and cause the death of thousands of innocent Muslims (Afghanistan, Iraq etc) because of Bush's wish to appear to be responding to the attacks in the US. So, can the attack really be said to have achieved it's, IMO misguided, aim?

[MikeL]

So, can the attack really be said to have achieved it's, IMO misguided, aim?

Whether it was misguided is a different question, and depends on whether all the consequences of these acts were fully considered. The fact is that if those responsible set out to inflict a severe blow on a nation that they perceived as an enemy, they achieved that aim. The repercussions of that attack have been enormous. The ongoing impact on ordinary Americans goes far beyond the loss of several thousand lives. As you point out, the death toll from the recent hurricane may well be several times that number. But that's not the point. The wound inflicted by the terrorists goes deep into the American psyche; what I think is even more significant is the effect of this symbolic act on international perceptions of American strength and weaknesses - political, military and moral.

[MikeL]

Oh they did that alright - for why????

Has it improved their lot? nope, they're dead. Has it improved their countrymens lot? Nope, even more of them dead and the rest in a war-torn country (well even MORE war torn than they're use to).

The only thing it has really achieved is to create a lot of colourful pictures on your fish'n'chip wrappers.

You appear to subscribe to the following theories:
(1) that as a group they are dumbarses who didn't think through the consequences
(2) that living in a war-torn country with no hope of improving their lot and just lying down and accepting it is better than dying for a cause which, rightly or wrongly, turns them into noble martyrs
(3) that their enemy was not substantially harmed by their actions
(4) that it has not caused any reconsideration of policies and attitudes towards them internationally, nor thrown their cause into prominence

I'd like to see your evidence for the above...

I don't know about you, but to me there seems to be at least a glimmer of a rationale behind what happened.

Is understanding really so close to condoning that it's a no-no??

[Big Dave]

See what I mean about an unwillingness to understand?

"Irrational reasoning" is an oxymoron. To deliberately fly a planeload of people into a building is an immoral act but it is not irrational. It was carefully planned and executed and achieved the intended purpose. What better definition of rational do you want?
By preferring to label it "irrational" you avoid having to deal with that awkward question of motives. Just consign them to the category of madmen and get on with the job of killing the bastards.

I understand perfectly thanks. I'm particularly intelligent. You presume too much.

Actually killing anybody in the name of a ideaology or 'cause' is irrational, immoral and in the towel heads case the work of madmen. The gates of anyone's heaven are barred to mass murderers.

[Big Dave]

Scumdog - I think their intended aim has been achieved - To make USA go to war and give them fuel for continuing their Muslim extremist hatred.

[Hoon]

Watching most of the 4 hour 9/11 special on Discovery has really opened my eyes to the terrorist threat. The biggest mistake people make is assuming terrorists are just a bunch of crazy goat farmers with AKs (hell I did!). This couldn't be further from the truth. Not only are they well organised and funded (Oil sheik pals, corrupt govts in back pockets etc), they are also well educated with degrees in aviation, civil engineering, urban planning etc and they are all dedicated to the cause of killing as many jews, christians and Americans as possible. I know a muslim guy from Jordan, prays 5 times a day etc. Nice guy with a wife and kids but one day the subject turned to Jews and I have never seen a person express so much hatred and anger in my life.

Whats even more worrying is that these extremists spend all their time devising ways to acheive this. They then apply for funding for their project and once approved, get a nice grant from Uncle Osama. Taking out the World Trade Center with a stanley knife is an example of what these people are capable of.

Osamas plan was to start a Jihad against America and thats what he acheived. There are angry Muslims all over the world looking for a reason and Osama knew that a Jihad would summon muslims to his cause and he was right. These aren't the goat farmers of yesteryear but University graduates, businessmen and professionals of the 21st century. Look at Iraq, muslims coming from all over the world to cross the border and fight there. The Koran says that they will die martyrs, become heros in the after-life, have sex with 72 virgins and there is no shortage of volunteers!

[Lou Girardin]

Scumdog - I think their intended aim has been achieved - To make USA go to war and give them fuel for continuing their Muslim extremist hatred.

So why didn't the Yanks learn from Vietnam?

[Big Dave]

So why didn't the Yanks learn from Vietnam?

Because they are in part a militaristic and warlike, gun toting people. Their leader is the 'Commander in Chief' and it flows from there.
When there was no specific target they declared war on an emotion. It's like their politicans can't get elected without one.

(Sarge and Waylander - don't take offence - some of my best friends are 'mericans)