Nicky Hager

[Banditbandit]

Fact: Helen Clark's government forced the minimum wage upon IHC in their workshops ... almost "all" the jobs that firms gave to the workshops have dried up!

Now they sit around in the workshops fiddling about with meaningless activities because they don't have any meaningful jobs to do!

There is fuck all cliché about that so I suspect there is probably some substance to the bullshit that you are complaining about! I do not profess to know!

That may have been true for a shot while - but it is no longer true ... many IHC workshops are tendering for contracts - and winning them .. and the people are doing better work than they ever did under the old regime ..

[oldrider]

Why does the right pull out arguments like that to suit themselves???

For exactly the same reasons that the left pulls them out of their ass to justify their own arguments!

[Banditbandit]

For exactly the same reasons that the left pulls them out of their ass to justify their own arguments!

Yeah .. I asked for that didn't I ... that's true ..al true ..

[oldrider]

That may have been true for a shot while - but it is no longer true ... many IHC workshops are tendering for contracts - and winning them .. and the people are doing better work than they ever did under the old regime ..

I am quite closely involved with IHC workshops (Idea services daybase) and I have seen little evidence of that! I will look closer!

[MisterD]

The fact that Campbell qualified his statements in this way say more about our libel laws than it does about the truth or falsity of Hagar's book ..

So what does the fact that Hager himself has couched everything as "may have", "could have" say?

[oldrider]

So what does the fact that Hager himself has couched everything as "may have", "could have" say?

Same reasons why alternative medicine always has to guard itself against the wrath of allopathic medicine by saying may or could have etc! Lawyers!

[buggerit]

I am quite closely involved with IHC workshops (Idea services daybase) and I have seen little evidence of that! I will look closer!

You work for Parlimentry Services?

[Banditbandit]

Do you understand the difference between a symptom and a root cause? My kids' school has a "Breakfast club" where weetbix and milk is provided to all FoC (so my boys have a second breakfast on some days) and most parents make a nominal donation to cover the costs of supervision. Band-aids are easy. Green parties promising $millions to fix child poverty is stupid if there's no way of assessing effectiveness.

If we don't address the root cause, we'll have the kids of those kids in exactly the same position in about 14 years time.

Yes .. See - now you are looking at the child ... and actually doing it ... and I bet you didn't measure anything before you did it ... and it wasn't that hard was it ... and you still haven't measured anything have you .. because you know it's working ...

I don't give a fuck whether it is a band aid or not - we now have children who are not hungry, are in class and learning and will do better in the future .. that's the important outcome.

Whether a hungry child is a symptom or not is irrelevant ... the child is hungry either way .. and has to be fed ... saying they are a symptom goes no way at all to feeding the child (but hey, you're already doing that ...)

OK root causes .. yes, I agree and we need to look at the root causes (once we have fed the child) ... (I would also like to ask why you consider root causes here, but most right wing people would not look at root causes of crime ... but that's another issue - but possibly the same root cause ... )

No, I don't believe that throwing money at parents will be effective ... it's a middle class liberal bullshit response ... this is part of the intergenerational project - feeding kids now is part of that because they will grow up having done better at school and, hopefully, will lead better lives than their parents.

Nor do I believe that increasing pay rates (work or benefit) is appropriate - more money for drugs and alcohol not food ..

In some ways I'm with Pol Pot .. shoot the root causes, but I know my "fellow travellers" and other left leaning muppets here will throw up there hands in horror .. and disown me ..

Which is why I don't belong to any of the left leaning muppet groups ...

[bluninja]

The New Zealand libel laws mean that YOU have to prove statements you make ...

Campbell is himself unable to prove what is in Hagar's book - Hagar may well be able to, but Campbell cannot ... he simply does not have the evidence.

So for John Campbell to repeat what Hagar says opens him up to a libel charge .... which he would not be able to defend ...

TV3s lawyers would have been all over what he said and made sure TV3 was protected ...
The fact that Campbell qualified his statements in this way say more about our libel laws than it does about the truth or falsity of Hagar's book ..

This Hagar?

[Banditbandit]

I am quite closely involved with IHC workshops (Idea services daybase) and I have seen little evidence of that! I will look closer!

Maybe I was thinking of a different sheltered workshop type arrangement - I went to look and couldn't find what I thought was there under any IHC type search ...

I do remember a Campbell Live (?) story about how well such a workshop was doing in Chch ... following the apparent "loss" of some contracts ... good chance my memory is faulty as to which organisation ran it ..

[Banditbandit]

So what does the fact that Hager himself has couched everything as "may have", "could have" say?

No idea .. I haven't read the book and have no intention of reading the book .. it would bore me silly (or make me angry ...) either way I'll avoid that shit ...

I do not need to learn again that politicians lie and cheat, shuck and jive ...

This Hagar

Freudian slip perhaps ???

But no - I can't spell in any language ...

[Swoop]

I think the one dead cert of a policy like that, is that the number of children needing to be fed will increase as borderline feckless parents realise there's one less expenditure that needs to get in the way of their booze money.

Interesting. I know of a woman who went into a WINZ office north of Auckland recently, demanding $$'s to get to a "Tangi". Eventually she was handed fuel vouchers.
Shortly afterwards she was seen offering them to members of the public at the petrol station...

So what does the fact that Hager himself has couched everything as "may have", "could have" say?

That he couldn't make a living as a "real" journalist?
In fact, what does he actually do for a real job? We know slater lives with mummy, so has an easy life with which to pump out his "blogs"...

I do remember a Campbell Live (?) story about how well such a workshop was doing in Chch ... following the apparent "loss" of some contracts ...

You are referring to the loss of the RSA contract for the ANZAC day poppies.

[oldrider]

You work for Parlimentry Services?

No, I have a handicapped family member who lives and works with Idea Services!

[Ocean1]

But I also think that education is a social good ... yes there are personal benefits, but much greater social benefits .. and while it may never be possible to provide completely free education loading graduates with huge debt BEFORE they even start work makes an impossible situation ...

No it doesn't. Thousands of graduates, the vast majority in fact use their qualifications to earn the money to pay their student loans with no huge difficulty. Those that don't can usually look to their choice of studies and their perception of it's value to blame for being stuck with what is really no more complex than the result of any other poor investment.

The fact that there's a lack of professional advisors there to tell them about the benefits of various qualifications speaks volumes on the general lack of comprehension of the link between effort and return at senior academic level.

As for the rest? Yes, some tertiary education has social value over and above the financial value to the student. Even a small, all but indiscernible monetary value to society. And given me druthers in charge I'd be selecting qualifications that directly benefit society and paying for as many of them as possible.

Civil Engineer? Certainly, sir, have a wedge of dosh and be here the first Monday next term. Underwater basket weaving? Sir should join that queue over there and be aware that the nice man at the other end will require two metric wedges of dosh at upon your arrival.

Fuck, this growing the economy lark is easy, what the fuck's all the fuss about?

[mashman]

No it doesn't. Thousands of graduates, the vast majority in fact use their qualifications to earn the money to pay their student loans with no huge difficulty. Those that don't can usually look to their choice of studies and their perception of it's value to blame for being stuck with what is really no more complex than the result of any other poor investment.

The fact that there's a lack of professional advisors there to tell them about the benefits of various qualifications speaks volumes on the general lack of comprehension of the link between effort and return at senior academic level.

As for the rest? Yes, some tertiary education has social value over and above the financial value to the student. Even a small, all but indiscernible monetary value to society. And given me druthers in charge I'd be selecting qualifications that directly benefit society and paying for as many of them as possible.

Civil Engineer? Certainly, sir, have a wedge of dosh and be here the first Monday next term. Underwater basket weaving? Sir should join that queue over there and be aware that the nice man at the other end will require two metric wedges of dosh at upon your arrival.

Fuck, this growing the economy lark is easy, what the fuck's all the fuss about?

Don't tell people what they can spend their money on... but they should take a productive job and forget anything that they would choose to do with their life. In fact, just in case they do try to follow their own heart, make it prohibitively expensive for anyone to do it.