Braided lines, are 2 better than 1?

[Drew]

A sub-group of fluid mechanics.

Learn something every day they reckon. "Dynamic" must just sound more like "rule" to me or summat.

Anyhoo, I'm loving not being the one arguing on the losing side of an argument for once.

[bogan]

Fuck ya! I wanted to use the window licker bit.

If anyone could feel the difference between one meter of braided line versus two, they should be riding a fucken GP bike and getting paid handsomely for their efforts.

Line expansion on even OEM rubber lines is minimal to the extreme, they just break down faster and are less efficient in radiating the heat from the fluid.

I have never seen a rule about race bikes that suggests individual lines are mandatory. If they were required, it should also be a requirement to have "fuses" (look them up, they're uuuber fucken cool) as close to the master as possible.

Maaaattee, there's fucking plenty of window lickers to go around, don't be getting all antsy about stepping on me turf...

[Big Dog]

I would agree with that. The expansion is the last bit of extreme i guess. Not sure how you would describe. Brakes are generally fine with every day use but if you wanted perfect with no leftover, braided twin lines would be the shiz!

Nice to see someone with some half pie decent input, cheers for that.

To be fair any time you give a stock setup that has seen a bit of age or mileage a freshen up of liquid, lines and pads you will see a marked difference. Unless you really screwed the pooch it will feel better even if you have used lower quality kit. The only real basis to say it was better from an anecdotal standpoint to have 2 lines over one is because you tried both back to back and felt or measured a difference.

I have seen bike mags bleat on about two likes are better than one because if they are equal in length then exactly the same force
Is applied to both callipers at all times due to identical "flexion" (if there is even such a word) of the hoses. That sounds like that is easy to measure huh?
These are the same magazines that have advertisements for these types of setup. I have also seen a brake special by one of
The titles mentioned that stated you would need some very fancy equipment to tell them apart and the only good reason for two lines is if a single line would be more prone to fowling, but that the most common reason for two is to make their bike look the part.

Ultimately buy what you like for your bike. If you're good enough for a difference that small to be that big a deal a professional will make a recommendation and you'll do a few laps with a data logger before someone else pays.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[BlackSheepLogic]

The double line set from the master (or 'race' line) is often slightly cheaper.

Not sure about one vrs two from a cost perspective if you are doing custom lines.

Using a single line pre-made kits specifically for the bike are easier to find and cheaper than doing customs.

[p.dath]

Educate yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_law

Pretty hard to argue with that. That's the bugger with facts.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Agree regarding the boobs, but if you are at the beach in the surf and the lovely next to you pops a titty in a wave and she does not notice it is fine by me.

Just what is the acceptable time one is allowed before innocently pointing it out to her?

Probably asking the wrong people, half of you would ask her if it was OK for them to 'free' the other side.

or pull my tiny willy out and start jerkin' its only tiny cos its COLD alright?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Pretty hard to argue with that. That's the bugger with facts.

Today I learned how hydraulic systems work

If a U-tube is filled with water and pistons are placed at each end, pressure exerted against the left piston will be transmitted throughout the liquid and against the bottom of the right piston. (The pistons are simply "plugs" that can slide freely but snugly inside the tube.) The pressure that the left piston exerts against the water will be exactly equal to the pressure the water exerts against the right piston. Suppose the tube on the right side is made wider and a piston of a larger area is used; for example, the piston on the right has 50 times the area of the piston on the left. If a 1 N load is placed on the left piston, an additional pressure due to the weight of the load is transmitted throughout the liquid and up against the larger piston. The difference between force and pressure is important: the additional pressure is exerted against the entire area of the larger piston. Since there is 50 times the area, 50 times as much force is exerted on the larger piston. Thus, the larger piston will support a 50 N load - fifty times the load on the smaller piston.

[vifferman]

To be fair any time you give a stock setup that has seen a bit of age or mileage a freshen up of liquid, lines and pads you will see a marked difference.

Yeah. Doesn't necessarily mean for the better though (performance wise). When I had my FahrtSturm, I changed the standard rubbery lines for braided ones (twice! the first ones weren't WOF-friendly), overhauled the calipers (a bit fraught, given BlueWank Honda don't carry ANY spares, so I had to import piston seals). I found that although the overhauled brakes looked better, and braking was better, the feel took some getting used to, as the lack of any flex felt 'wooden' compared to the standard rubber lines. This is probably the reason (well... that, and laziness/cost) that I haven't bothered to change the DCBS system on the VFR for a lighter, uncoupled, braided system. Plus I kinda like the DCBS, as braking on gravel or greasy surfaces using the brake pedal works very nicely, ta!

[Banditbandit]

If anyone could feel the difference between one meter of braided line versus two, they should be riding a fucken GP bike and getting paid handsomely for their efforts.

Why - thank you Drew. I didn't believe I was that good ... (really, I have only experienced the difference between one rubber line with an extension or two braided lines).

Line expansion on even OEM rubber lines is minimal to the extreme, they just break down faster and are less efficient in radiating the heat from the fluid.

Hmmm .. I recently fitted braided lines to both of my bikes as and what a hell of a difference.

I did it because I thought it would give me better braking, and it definitely did that. I came to the first major corner on my usual route home, touched the brake as normal - and the bike nearly stopped dead .... a lot less pressure required. That means In a real emergency the bike will stop a lot faster without having to haul on the lever.

On the front I used two lines from the master cylinder (One to each side - if you know Suzuki brake lines, they drop from the master cylinder to the right-hand caliper, with an extension over the mudguard to the other caliper.) A mate pointed out that you could feel the shift on the lip around (where the rivets are) the brake rotor and the rest of the mounting unit on the right hand side, but not on the left, indicating that there was more braking pressure on the right than on the left ... causing the right hand rotor to distort a little more than the left

I've pointed this out to the Suzie riders too ...

Anyway - the braided lines are a HUGE improvement .. I won't argue physics or any of that shit .. I just now they are HUGELY better ...

I recommend two braided lines from the master cylinder - one to each caliper ..

[F5 Dave]

Okay. . . It is the AMA that requires 2 line settup on race bikes I'm pretty sure. The Suzuki over the guard setup is clean and cheap as no union boxes. Suzuki do cheap.

The issue is that the loop is easier to get a tiny bit of air in as it's at the top of the system with no bleed point. That was the AMAs rational I guess not every race bike is going to have new fluid freshly bled like they should.

I'd bet half the race grid at most any meeting would have fluid a year old and at club level there would be a good handful that was same fluid as came from the factory no matter the age of the bike.



Two lines will increase braking pressure by 20% but only if you use copper crush washers and 6.0 brake fluid.



Ok that last bit is a troll

[Grumph]

Okay. . . It is the AMA that requires 2 line settup on race bikes I'm pretty sure. The Suzuki over the guard setup is clean and cheap as no union boxes. Suzuki do cheap.

The issue is that the loop is easier to get a tiny bit of air in as it's at the top of the system with no bleed point. That was the AMAs rational I guess not every race bike is going to have new fluid freshly bled like they should.

I'd bet half the race grid at most any meeting would have fluid a year old and at club level there would be a good handful that was same fluid as came from the factory no matter the age of the bike.



Two lines will increase braking pressure by 20% but only if you use copper crush washers and 6.0 brake fluid.



Ok that last bit is a troll

The bloody yanks are anal - have a look at the AHRMA and AMA requirements for lockwiring some time. Personally I use two lines from the master because I'm old and lazy and they're a shitload easier to bleed properly....

[Motu]

although the overhauled brakes looked better, and braking was better, the feel took some getting used to, as the lack of any flex felt 'wooden' compared to the standard rubber lines.

That's why rubber hoses are used in stock systems, to give ''feel'' to the brakes. Back in the days of rod operated rear brakes if they were a bit savage, we'd put a kink in the rod for a bit more feel...and they wouldn't lock up at a touch of the pedal.

[F5 Dave]

Anyone that remembers 80s Yams will have noticed the feeling go totally wooden with braided lines. The master cylinder size accounting for a bunch of flex in the lines that only got worse with a few years.

They would have benefited from a size smaller master size to get some lever travel back, and usefully some more power.

[vifferman]

The issue is that the loop is easier to get a tiny bit of air in as it's at the top of the system with no bleed point.

From memory (it was over 10 years ago) that was a problem on the Firestorm too, so replacing the stock set up with braided lines made them MUCH easier to bleed.
VFR is easy to bleed - I just pay someone else to do it. After 40 years, I'm kinda over doing much of my own car/bike maintenance myself, and (almost) comfortable with paying ridiculous amounts of money for other people to get greasy hands and skinned knuckles. Still happy with the 'interesting stuff', like electrical work, customising, etc.

[nzspokes]

From memory (it was over 10 years ago) that was a problem on the Firestorm too, so replacing the stock set up with braided lines made them MUCH easier to bleed.

Yeah they suck to bleed stock. Ive got braided lines for mine, just have to get the time to fit em. And get some decent pads before my next track day.