Key Government out on its own. No one else to blame!

[oldrider]

Legitimate question ... or not?

1) Does John Key hold dual citizenship ... USA / New Zealand?

2) If so, is that actually allowed under NZ law considering his position?

Reason for asking, he spent a long time working / living in America and he owns property there ... supposedly not so easy to do without citizenship!

Link: https://aotearoaawiderperspective.wo...p-us-find-out/

John Key's impressive resume: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Key

[blue rider]

new powers to the surveillance state that is NZ....the land of the not so free. But never fear...if you are a law abiding citizens nothing will happen to you.



http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/nation...is-law-changes

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/pr...s-surveillance

The Government plans to change the law to allow the Minister of Internal Affairs to cancel passports for between one and three years and temporarily suspend them for 10 days in urgent cases.
It will also allow the Security Intelligence Service (SIS) to carry out video surveillance on private properties in cases of security concern.
In emergencies they will be allowed to begin surveillance up to 48 hours before the issue of a warrant, with the approval of its director.

are the National supporters so afraid that they will give their government power to conduct surveillance without a warrant and let someones passport be suspended?

are the National supporters so worried that some fuckwit form bumfuckistan goes to war and get themselves killed that they need to wholesale introduce a totalitarian suvereillance state?

is this really what people have voted for, or are we slowly but surely being turned into a corporate state? T'would be nice if a national supporter and voter could answer this question for me...because I don't get it. If any of the other Parties were to do what John Key and his band of merry mates are about to implement all hell would break loose.

[oldrider]

new powers to the surveillance state that is NZ....the land of the not so free. But never fear...if you are a law abiding citizens nothing will happen to you.



http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/nation...is-law-changes

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/pr...s-surveillance




are the National supporters so afraid that they will give their government power to conduct surveillance without a warrant and let someones passport be suspended?

are the National supporters so worried that some fuckwit form bumfuckistan goes to war and get themselves killed that they need to wholesale introduce a totalitarian suvereillance state?

is this really what people have voted for, or are we slowly but surely being turned into a corporate state? T'would be nice if a national supporter and voter could answer this question for me...because I don't get it. If any of the other Parties were to do what John Key and his band of merry mates are about to implement all hell would break loose.

Good question that but "what other parties are there"? ... War is absolutely stupid! ... why do we need that?... Haven't we learned anything?

[James Deuce]

Who cares. This is NZ where you don't bother recovering bodies if there's no economic benefit.

[mashman]

Who cares. This is NZ where you don't bother recovering bodies if there's no economic benefit.

I do. NZ is no different to any other country.

[James Deuce]

I do. NZ is no different to any other country.

Name that logical fallacy.

[mashman]

Name that logical fallacy.

uk, us, france, germany, arabia, iran, china, ifrica... they'll all leave bodies buried if they can't afford to remove them.

[James Deuce]

That's not a logical fallacy. They have specific names. I was talking about your argument.

There are several reports that state that there is nominal risk in reopening the mine to recover bodies from the most likely locations. The overall cost to do so is insignificant.

Read the Q&A on Stuff about the decision not to recover them and it is entirely about the coal permit not being renewed for Pike River.

In regard to your original argument, there is no point caring, we are all of us utterly incapable of exerting any kind of influence to change any of the things you rant about. The inertia behind our current system of Government and the International artifices that enable currency and physical trade enable a moribund and corrupt "system" to maintain its own velocity. There will never be social equity. There will never be justice, there will never be a society that rises above worshipping a creed that eventually sequesters all economic and political influence in a select few who are feared and loved and emulated. It's how we do it and shit. Right up to the point where people are happy to start preaching economic value as excuse for ignoring values.

[mashman]

That's not a logical fallacy. They have specific names. I was talking about your argument.

There are several reports that state that there is nominal risk in reopening the mine to recover bodies from the most likely locations. The overall cost to do so is insignificant.

Read the Q&A on Stuff about the decision not to recover them and it is entirely about the coal permit not being renewed for Pike River.

In regard to your original argument, there is no point caring, we are all of us utterly incapable of exerting any kind of influence to change any of the things you rant about. The inertia behind our current system of Government and the International artifices that enable currency and physical trade enable a moribund and corrupt "system" to maintain its own velocity. There will never be social equity. There will never be justice, there will never be a society that rises above worshipping a creed that eventually sequesters all economic and political influence in a select few who are feared and loved and emulated. It's how we do it and shit. Right up to the point where people are happy to start preaching economic value as excuse for ignoring values.

All bits of land with imaginary borders and people on them. By all means add the names, feck all changes. (to be fair Chile didn't give up on their miners).

I'm sure there are any number of excuses for not retrieving the bodies, but I agreed with your economic assessment as being the primary issue. If the govt has said they would retrieve the bodies irrespective of cost and the bodies are still in there... then I reckons the govt lied.

And that's a reason not to try? Shit, we only need to replace 61 people and democracy does the rest. Quite possibly only need 30 people and the career politician that got into politics to change the world will likely remember that... irrespective, 61 is all that's required... 121 if you wanna make sure. We'll see.

[trustme]

You must have read a different Q & A report in stuff to the one I just looked at. The decision is a based on the belief that it is not feasible to do a body recovery with no risk to rescuers. Not a bit of risk , not a perhaps or maybe , not a let's cross our fingers & hope, not a let's go like fuck & we'll beat any risk. There had to be no risk , any fuck up & the consequences would be monumental for Solid Energy legally & politically. They erred on the side a of caution .
Predictable , I don't blame them, the way the industrial safety laws are set up they had little choice.

[willytheekid]

.

.

Solid energy is my current service customer (I take care of all of there sites, services, staff IT ICT requests etc etc)

Simple fact is...the MINERS!, who worked that mine for years, have all the experiance and training, ALL say it is possible with minimal risk!, and they are willing to sign any form that states they accept any responcibilty for there own deaths as a result....THEY WANT THERE MATES BACK!!

SO FUCK THE PENCIL PUSHERS!....I trust the guys on the coal face!, THEY are the ones who worked in that mine, THEY are the ones whos mates are Rotting down a god forsaken coal shaft....and THEY are the ones who are willing to take the risk!, and use there years of experiance and knowledge to get there boys back....why stop them? (It may damage there already fucked mine?...or!...those who enter may also PROVE! that the mine was not up to operational safety standards!!...because THATS! THE ISSUE THEY ARE HIDING!...and I can confirm the lack of safety and poor management within SE...and how "snuggly" they are with National presently$$$...nuff said)

...R.I.P boys....at work! and at the bottom of a god forsaken coal mine so poorly run that it caused your deaths! ...no fuckin way...bring them home!

[trustme]

I understand your sentiments , I almost agree with you. You say that the miners are prepared to take the risk so let them go in. The big problem is that it is not only them that takes the risk , it is SE & it's directors who are at risk if anything goes wrong, it's a risk they are not prepared to take & I can't blame them. They did not create the mess, they are having to clean up someone else's mess.

There was a fatality in an industry that I work in a few months ago , truth is the guy fucked up & it cost him his life .
The consequence has been paralysis by analysis , everybody is gun shy , no one wants to make a decision. Worksafe wants to nail someone, the multinational owner has sent the management involved a letter telling them to lawyer up they are on their own.

I hate accidents , they are my worst nightmare, we seem to have adopted a policy of ' who can we blame & how hard can we punish them ' rather than what can we learn to prevent it happening again.

[willytheekid]

... it is SE & it's directors who are at risk if anything goes wrong, it's a risk they are not prepared to take & I can't blame them. They did not create the mess, they are having to clean up someone else's mess.
.

They certainly ARE at risk if the truth of the failed management and safety standards in the mine are ever proven!
...there quest for profit through cost cuts and hiring unskilled management with limited or NO experiance in mine safety operations and proceedure DIRECTLY caused this explosion!...there are numerous reports that prove the equipment and processes needed to be upgraded...but SE and its directors REFUSED to address the multiple issues reported from all sectors at the mine....as it would eat into PROFITS!

SE & THE DIRECTORS CAUSED THIS DUE TO POOR MANAGEMENT & GREED!...nothing else!

(I work with these people on a daily basis...If I could share more without breaching EVERY confidentiality contract...I would!, because SE is run by muppets who place profit WELL before the safety of there own staff!)


That mine was dangerous well before the explosion!...read the multiple reports on the failed safety processes, cos they are just the very TIP of the fail iceberg mate.

[trustme]

I must be missing something . I thought at the time of the accident the mine was owned by Pike River, a private company who were no part of SE. Pike River may very well have a case to answer, but if SE were not the owner of the mine at the time of the explosion it can hardly be their fault. Simply because they picked up the ball or copped the hospital pass depending on how you look at it , you can't blame them for the negligence of the previous owner.

[oldrider]

(It may damage there already fucked mine?...or!...those who enter may also PROVE! that the mine was not up to operational safety standards!!...because THATS! THE ISSUE THEY ARE HIDING!...and I can confirm the lack of safety and poor management within SE...and how "snuggly" they are with National presently$$$...nuff said)

really? If it was only a safety issue what was the local company safety officer doing about it ... never ever saw that mentioned!

I think he may have lost one son and the other was one of the survivors so I guess everybody went soft on him!

Does anybody actually know? this has always bugged the hell out of me but never could find anything on it!