New Zealand. What a back water shit hole.

[R650R]

Written by a true liberal who would like things to return to the Victorian era of wealthy minority capitalist "upper class" and stunningly poor "lower class", many surplus to requirements thus allowing wages to be kept at a subsistence level.

That sounds very similar to your average commie/socialist dictatorship.

[pete376403]

That sounds very similar to your average commie/socialist dictatorship.

Correct, there wasn't (and isn't) a lot of difference. Communiism was *supposed* to make the difference but human nature quickly reverted to type.

[pete376403]

Something something the Left wing something Immigration something open borders something.

You shouldn't knock immigration - after all it's how you got here

[TheDemonLord]

You shouldn't knock immigration - after all it's how you got here

Sure - but that presumes all migrants are the same.

The point was about cheap labour - basic supply and demand curves - if there's an excess of supply (people) then the price stays low. Restrict the supply (for example by having a well-enforced border and having a set of criteria to emigrate) and the price for labour goes up.

Interestingly enough - I was reading about the end of feudalism the other day and one of the major factors was that with the Black Death in europe, that drastically reduced the amount of labour available - meaning the peasants had a significantly stronger position in negotiating their services with the Nobles.

Letting a few highly skilled and specialized migrants in is not the same as letting large numbers of relatively unskilled labour in.

[Al Bundy 4eva!]

Sure - but that presumes all migrants are the same.

The point was about cheap labour - basic supply and demand curves - if there's an excess of supply (people) then the price stays low. Restrict the supply (for example by having a well-enforced border and having a set of criteria to emigrate) and the price for labour goes up.

Interestingly enough - I was reading about the end of feudalism the other day and one of the major factors was that with the Black Death in europe, that drastically reduced the amount of labour available - meaning the peasants had a significantly stronger position in negotiating their services with the Nobles.

Letting a few highly skilled and specialized migrants in is not the same as letting large numbers of relatively unskilled labour in.

Problem with this is the cost of labour goes up so does inflation and the price spiral upwards continues making everyone poorer, or the value of your currency worth less, cheap imported labour drive's down the cost, hence we become richer because you have far more choices, in other words the free market also known as Capitalism

[TheDemonLord]

Problem with this is the cost of labour goes up so does inflation and the price spiral upwards continues making everyone poorer, or the value of your currency worth less, cheap imported labour drive's down the cost, hence we become richer because you have far more choices, in other words the free market also known as Capitalism

Disagree.

Inflation has a singular cause - which is the expansion of the Money supply. Not the labour supply.

As Labour becomes scarce, it becomes a more valuable resource - therefore do-nothing jobs that don't produce anything of value become less and less viable - which ultimately means that more things of value are produced, causing the Economy to grow (but not inflate) - which means we actually get richer, real wealth - not artificial wealth.

Case in point: Post WW2 economic boom.

[Al Bundy 4eva!]

^^ Immigration was at record levels during the Key and Clark era's, inflation went down so this proves my point, I do agree with the counterfeiting of money by central bank's, however this did not happen after WW2 but later when Nixon was going to end the gold standard because the US was going broke from the Vietnam war and the expensive 60s.

This gave the US the all go to start printing the US dollar which even affected me as a baby, having to move from Ponsonby to the West side for affordable housing
My parents couldn't afford a $2,000 crappy Ponsonby villa so had to move.

The 70s was the true era money printing begun or counterfeiting money by central banks started to hit Kiwis, this meant mum had too work as well

Fuck Nixon.

Side note, Trump has said he will let the US default on its debts instead of printing more money, I believe he's the leading Republican candidate

[JimO]

You shouldn't knock immigration - after all it's how you got here

thats how everyone got here

[pete376403]

thats how everyone got here

Maybe initially but I was concieved and born here. Have to go back to grandparents to have immigrants in the bloodline

[F5 Dave]

^^ Immigration was at record levels during the Key and Clark era's, inflation went down so this proves my point, I do agree with the counterfeiting of money by central bank's, however this did not happen after WW2 but later when Nixon was going to end the gold standard because the US was going broke from the Vietnam war and the expensive 60s.

This gave the US the all go to start printing the US dollar which even affected me as a baby, having to move from Ponsonby to the West side for affordable housing
My parents couldn't afford a $2,000 crappy Ponsonby villa so had to move.

The 70s was the true era money printing begun or counterfeiting money by central banks started to hit Kiwis, this meant mum had too work as well

Fuck Nixon.

Side note, Trump has said he will let the US default on its debts instead of printing more money, I believe he's the leading Republican candidate

Inflation went down everywhere,.

The problem with huge immigration is who pays for the infrastructure to support them?

Someone else's problem said too many governments. Look at our rockstar economy.


You cant have infinite growth. There needs to be a calculation of net benefit which in economics is Through life cost.

[Al Bundy 4eva!]

Inflation went down everywhere,.

The problem with huge immigration is who pays for the infrastructure to support them?

Someone else's problem said too many governments. Look at our rockstar economy.


You cant have infinite growth. There needs to be a calculation of net benefit which in economics is Through life cost.

I've never really understood this argument so I'm up for understanding an opposite opinion

During the Key and Clark era we had solid growth or infinite growth as you say

True

Yes us rich were getting richer, but were the poor worse of than today's socialist policies?

I've taken a hit to my net worth but I still don't need to work for a living, and from what I can understand it's really tough for not just the lower working class or poor but increasingly for the middle class

Crime is rampant, House prices are down yet nobody can afford to buy one, I unfortunately agree with the title of this thread.

However, I don't necessarily blame the current government, I solely blame sheep who gave them 50% of the power only for their leader to fk off when it got too hard.

A simple answer to your question, To build the infrastructure, you need the workers or immigrants, to pay for the infrastructure, you need the income or tax revenue, immigrants pay their way as has always been the case around the world

You need an increase in productivity or labor which is immigration

You need to struggle before you achieve prosperity as a country, not the other way around or you end up with a dead economy

Yes you can stop growth, but treasury is forcasting a deficit out to 2026? Which means we spend more than we earn

So you get your wish, not infinite growth but no growth, which makes the poor poorer, I'm fine because my investments are off shore.

Happy to hear a different opinion, preferably ones own and not a link.

[Al Bundy 4eva!]

I'll simplify my above post to immigration

In this theoretical scenario

If it's just Al Bundy, Husenberg, Berries and F5Dave living in NZ no immigration or growth,

We trade bread, meat , vegetables in exchange for labour and transport

Sounds great, socialist Eutopia, nobody is rich and nobody is poor

Job done!

until you realise Australia's

dollar is now worth 20 x more than ours because of our non existent economy

That's alright, we can live independently of Capitalism, fuck OZ,Fuck USA

But wait

Berries needs his diabetic medicine, it's 50 times more expensive than 3 year's ago because of our weak currency and economy.

Don't believe this could happen? It happens all the time with socialist countries

Venezuela is one that spring to mind

And before you bring up the Scandinavian countries, these countries built there wealth on capitalism, exporting oil then investing in the US share market which affords them to live in so called socialist countries

[Kickaha]

Berries needs his diabetic medicine, it's 50 times more expensive than 3 year's ago because of our weak currency and economy.

Don't believe this could happen? It happens all the time with socialist countries

Is the USA socialist ? is that why American citizens drive across the border to Canada to buy cheap insulin or order it online from there?

Is that why the price of Insulin in America went up 97% in four years ? Was that because the USA is Socialist ? or is it just the weak USD and weak US economy

[pete376403]

Berries needs his diabetic medicine, it's 50 times more expensive than 3 year's ago because of our weak currency and economy.

Or maybe it's rampant capitalists like martin shkreli ("pharma bro")who obtained the manufacturing license for the antiparasitic drug Daraprim, a drug that was so cheap it wasn't worth other companies competing, and raised its price by 5,455% (from US$13.50 to $750 per pill).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Shkreli

[Al Bundy 4eva!]

Is the USA socialist ? is that why American citizens drive across the border to Canada to buy cheap insulin or order it online from there?

Is that why the price of Insulin in America went up 97% in four years ? Was that because the USA is Socialist ? or is it just the weak USD and weak US economy

There are many items that the US import from other countries because of price, the US is the wealthiest country in the world for 2 reasons, capitalism and the US dollar being the reserve country of oil ..I mean the world.