Attitude Change

[placidfemme]

Hi all

I was just thinking about something, and know a few of you will disagree with me... and I hope I don't offened certain people (they will know who they are).

Firstly, let me just say I'm really bad with names, which is proberly a good thing in this case...

As most of you know, we had a great ride out to Wellsford and back yesterday, and on the ride was a father and daughter who ride together. And the daughter mentioned that she wanted a bigger bike (currently on a 250), now I was busy back and forth trying to tell everyone where we were heading next and the such, so I didn't catch the whole conversation, but this said daughter mentioned she wanted a bigger bike, which I'm assuming means over 600cc (as her fathers bike is bigger than 600cc and she's ridden his bike in the past and liked it).

Now given her age, and riding experience and body size... everyone (mostly) was trying to talk her out of the bigger bike, and is was really obvious to anyone sitting close by that no-one (not even her father) was going to talk her out of a bigger bike. But still everyone kept going on about her not being able to do it, and generally being rather negative about her getting a bigger bike.

At the time I stayed out the conversation because I didn't know the full story (Sam fulled me in when we got home) and I was thinking about it...

Maybe to a certain degree we need to change our attitudes...

We are all out there on our bikes because we obviously love biking... and judging by the amount of accidents posted and all that sort not all of us are perfect bikers... no-one is really...

And you see guys with numerous years road riding/racing experience who've been riding since they were knee high to a grasshopper... and even they have the meanest accidents or decision making from time to time and something bad happens.

Now in the case of this young lady, as stated, it was damn obvious that no-one was going to change her mind... and because everyone kept nagging at her, all that did was make her feel uncomfortable, looked down on and not a part of the "group" or "community" or whatever...

Now instead of judging her and making her feel like shit (and still go out there and buy the bigger bike) do you think that sometimes we need to change our attitudes... this is a fellow biker we're talking about...

Why not ask her what type of "bigger" bike she wants, and find someone with a similar bike to be her "mentor"

She's going to get it anyway... and instead of judging her for her choice, why not help her?

If you think she can't handle the bigger bike, why not teach her how to?

By all judging her, she is likley to not want to ride with us again (and I don't blame her... if everyone had ganged up on me and gave me a lecture for 20 minutes I wouldn't be running back to ride with them). And in this case, that means she will be getting a bigger bike, that she may or may not be able to handle, and will have to deal with on her own, with only her father to guide her... which is fine because no doubt he is a good rider...

But instead of the "I told you so" kinda attitude or "you can't handle it" attitude why not change that to a "ok your gonna do it anyway, let us help you stay alive" attitude instead?

*prepares myself for all the attacks*

[MSTRS:Me]

Spose you're right. When I think about this, I come up with....There'd be very few of us on bikes at all if we listened to "advice"

[Wellyman]

We all want more power. its just something that happens.
WM

[Sniper]

Its a hard line between father and daughter. No-one but him really knows her capabilities. I would happily stay out of the way PF just because you dont want anything to be blamed on you

[bugjuice]

not sure if this is the best thing to discuss here, but my 2¢:

we weren't judging her at all. Watching her ride, she is a good rider, and obviously the cruiser she's on, isn't right for what she wants to ride like (getting your butt off the seat and going for the knee-down isn't a cruiser thing), but there's two simple things that would make it a really really bad idea.
1) the law. you cannot go breaking the law outside of your restrictions. You get fined to death (it goes on record too), and eventually, you could have your lisence taken away (from what I've heard).

2) insurance. You cannot obtain insurance outside your conditions of your lisence, no matter what. This means, if you have an accident, you could face paying outright for the bike with nothing to show for it. And that's if you have an 'off' on your own. If you hit anything, like another car etc, you have to fork out for that too. Plus, you'll get more fines from the law on top. And more to add to your record.

Personally, it's just not worth the risk for the sake of having a 250 for a year or so. There's still so much to learn, power isn't everything. In fact, power is nothing without control.

But, you can't force someone to do something. They have to learn for themselves, else you push them away when they most need you. So sometimes, you just have to accept that you've said your piece, and it's then their choice to make up the options.

[placidfemme]

Spose you're right. When I think about this, I come up with....There'd be very few of us on bikes at all if we listened to "advice"

Exactly... I want a 600 next, and people say to me "no get a 400 next and work your way up", a lot of bikers ride bikes they can't handle... and so we shouldn't be judging them but helping them... another dead biker is a black mark in our book... partly bad riding... party no support in being a better rider...

I know a mentor thing was kind of started... but I don't see the harm in experienced riders helping out the non-experienced riders... for example... me jumping on a 636... no doubt I wouldn't be able to handle it (not at this stage anyway)... but instead of giving me shit... why doesn't another more experienced 636 rider come to me and say "look I ride a 636, lets for a slow ride, and see how you ride" and the 636 rider can follow me, note my riding style and then give comments and lead for a while so I can lean the right lines and how to handle my new bike...

But I've just noticed the attitude sometimes really sucks...

[Waylander]

Its a hard line between father and daughter. No-one but him really knows her capabilities. I would happily stay out of the way PF just because you dont want anything to be blamed on you

Mate not even her dad knows her true capabilities. If she's been riding long enough to be able to get a bigger bike now (as in not on her restricted) then she should know her skills better than anyone else.

PF is right, rather than have her do it on her own and possibly stuff it up in a wreck somewhere, others should help her learn better.

[Vagabond]

Go for it!
You learn to cope with it.
Done.

[MSTRS:Me]

The other thing that comes to mind is, when presented with your scenario, it brings out the 'parent' in the more experienced riders.

[Mr Skid]

I'm working my way down, -5hp and -25km/h top speed moving from a 250 to a 600.
There are bigger bikes that aren't supersport tupperware racers.

[crashe]

Placidfemme....

Just so that you know the said young lady has only just passed her restricted... and still has another 18 months to go before she gets her full.
Unless she does a course which will then bring it down to 12 months.

What we are suggesting is that she sells her Virago and buy a 250 sports bike... then she wil still be on her restricted and still within the law... and be able to go faster as that is what she seems to be wanting to do.
She will have so much more fun on a sportsbike...

A sportsbike will go a lot faster than the Virago.

What happens is she gets a bigger bike.... and crashes it into a car... (which we don't want to happen) She then has to pay out for the car and loose all that good money that she paid on her bike.
Cos riding a bike out of your license means no insurance coverage for her.

But at the end of the day it is her choice...
She is only 17 years old and is in a good job.

[placidfemme]

I wasn't aware she is only just on her restricted... But in general... I was just using her case as an example and not actually judging her or her family for her choice...

Watching her and you were all talking to her, from her point of view I could see she didn't look comfortable in the situation, everytime she tried to talk, 3 or 4 of you would cut in and she couldn't finish what she wanted to say, and I felt she was being picked on, and I'm guessing she felt the same...

I understand the law side of things, and insurance and what not... but not every biker has insurance anyway, and on KB there are a few people on learners and restricted that are riding bikes bigger than 250cc.

It's something that happens, and it will continue to happed, so instead of making her feel pushed out and judged and so forth, like you said it's her choice... so why not be supportive in the sense that she (or anyone else) knows that you don't think it's the best option, and then offer her a mentor or something...

[James Deuce]

But instead of the "I told you so" kinda attitude or "you can't handle it" attitude why not change that to a "ok your gonna do it anyway, let us help you stay alive" attitude instead?

*prepares myself for all the attacks*

Stop being silly. It's not an attack it's a debate that may get robust.
I took the approach I've made bold above with two guys who used to frequent this site, reasoning that they needed guidance rather than lectures.

One is dead. Brilliant rider, but balls to the wall everywhere.

One got badly fucked up and has decided not to ride again. This guy was actually really into the idea of mentoring as well, and listened and applied new skills immediately. I probably made him over confident.

Be prepared to accept the cost of making supportive statements to "immortal" young uns. They really do think that it won't happen to them because of their "superior" skills and reflexes. If you aren't prepared to live with guilt and remorse then don't say anything. If you are prepared to perform first aid and ring an ambulance and organise transport for their bikes post accident, then ride with them.

[Sniper]

Mate not even her dad knows her true capabilities. If she's been riding long enough to be able to get a bigger bike now (as in not on her restricted) then she should know her skills better than anyone else.

I understand that. But it might have been her dad who put her onto biking and is in the process of mentoring her. Its the same as doing Karate. You cannot practise for 2 weeks and then think to beat your sensei out of others advice. (Speaking from personal experience there)

[madboy]

The world is full of people who believe they are right. And if you firmly believe you are right, how can you be wrong? Some people accept debate, but some people get defensive and refer to rule one - they are right, how can they be wrong?

It's her decision what she rides, and she should be shown the respect that she, as an individual, deserves for making that decision. It's okay to express your opinion to her, as I am expressing my opinion now. But is your opinion, or mine for that matter, the correct one? No, they're just opinions.

BJ commented on insurance and license conditions. Valid points to those who care about insurance and license conditions. Many of us do, but equally many of us don't. Side note... it's 25 demerits and I think $400 per condition. >100 demerits inside 2 years = 3 months disq.

To me, I'm in the "don't care" category. I learnt on a 400, no tickets even though I never conformed to the license conditions. Luck? I moved up to the 636 after a year. Yep, I dropped the 636 in a rookie mistake, and yep I learnt from it - fortunately it was a very very minor drop. Yep, it's limits are above mine, but I like it, I can afford it, so I own it.

The biking community is full of people who ride bikes they can't possibly hope to ride to their limits. How many of us sportsbike riders actually get our knees down then drop rubber lines outta the corners before popping it up on one until we pull a stoppie for the next corner? (No comments WT/LB/Death please)

How do you determine when is a good time to upgrade? Is it when you can ride the nuts of your current bike? If so, most of use should be riding scooters. Is it when you can ride a big bike? Well pretty much all of us should be able to, we just tell ourselves that we can't. I'm sure I can ride a thou no problem. It's only when I twist the throttle that it'll be any different to my bike, and if I've got the self-control not to twist it too hard (which is the reason who I don't ride a thou) then where's the problem?

If she wants a bigger bike - my opinion is good on her.