Oddball engines and prototypes

[WilDun]

The white metal floating bush big end was because one piece cadges in plated aluminium were not available at the time to RE.
Whist the then available rivoted steel cadges broke up do to the cyclic variation of the big end accelerating and declerating.

That is probably true, but all the others like Matchless etc etc seemed to manage ok with rollers and Ariel actually used crowded (and two row) short rollers in the two stroke twin Arrow!(dunno if that was a wise move)
I seem to remember that one of the British model aircraft engines used "floating" wedge like segments between the rollers in their crankshaft mains which were not connected to each other (can't remember which company - it'll come to me)... Taplin maybe.

[husaberg]

That is probably true, but all the others like Matchless etc etc seemed to manage ok with rollers and Ariel actually used crowded (and two row) short rollers in the two stroke twin Arrow!(dunno if that was a wise move)
I seem to remember that one of the British model aircraft engines used "floating" wedge like segments between the rollers in their crankshaft mains which were not connected to each other (can't remember which company - it'll come to me)... Taplin maybe.

Remember early triumph twins had no big end bearings at all they relied on the Aluminium alloy conecting rod as the bearing surface.
Royal Enfield might have been saving money or more likely were not allowed to use a bearing manufactured outside their own group of companies. Likely both.

[Grumph]

The white metal floating bush big end was because one piece cadges in plated aluminium were not available at the time to RE.
Whist the then available rivoted steel cadges broke up do to the cyclic variation of the big end accelerating and declerating.

Where did you get that from ? RE certainly had alloy roller cages available - as did all the UK manufacturers. Never seen a plated one....
One piece steel bigend cages again were readily available. Riveted cages are used in main bearings, never seen one in a bigend.

RE simply went their own way with the floating bush bigend. It had first been used in cars in the 20's and still had a following even though it had already been proved inadequate due to inherent oiling issues. Chap called Henri used it in several Grand Prix car designs - all of which were rpm limited due to the bush...

It did see a revival in modern times - it's surprisingly suitable for the center bearing in a turbocharger.

[Grumph]

Remember early triumph twins had no big end bearings at all they relied on the Aluminium alloy conecting rod as the bearing surface.

Right alloy and plenty of oil, no problems. Millions of stationary engines and air compressors doing just that without even pressure oiling....

[husaberg]

Where did you get that from ? RE certainly had alloy roller cages available - as did all the UK manufacturers. Never seen a plated one....
One piece steel bigend cages again were readily available. Riveted cages are used in main bearings, never seen one in a bigend.

RE simply went their own way with the floating bush bigend. It had first been used in cars in the 20's and still had a following even though it had already been proved inadequate due to inherent oiling issues. Chap called Henri used it in several Grand Prix car designs - all of which were rpm limited due to the bush...

It did see a revival in modern times - it's surprisingly suitable for the center bearing in a turbocharger.

it was in the write up on the Royal enfield i posted the one with the big head bullet.
i will see if i can dig it up but it came from a royal enfield designer from back in the day.
riveted is not my best descrition, A build up cadge is what i meant.
when you think about it RE was in the same family of companies that included alpha bearings as well as albion (later on at least)

[Grumph]

Tony Wilson-Jones who's quoted in that extract should have had his pencils seized and burned. He was responsible for some absolute horrors.
He's also dancing around the truth - postwar I doubt if anyone was using open ended bigend cages. He was trying to justify staying with the bush in the face of better bearings being made on modern machinery. RE's production numbers were pretty low by comparison with the rest of the UK bike manufacturers - all of whom managed to secure alloy cages properly broached from solid. Quite possibly, at that time they couldn't afford the machinery to make proper cages...
RE did some weird things - anyone who's tried to fathom why the twins oil pump setup was done like that will realise thsy were just different...

[guyhockley]

It did see a revival in modern times - it's surprisingly suitable for the center bearing in a turbocharger.

I think the fact that they now have ball bearings that survive turbocharger revs is bloody impressive...

[WilDun]

Tony Wilson-Jones who's quoted in that extract should have had his pencils seized and burned. He was responsible for some absolute horrors.

I haven't heard of him before but I'll take a punt and say he was probably one of the "chaps" who together brought the industry to it's knees post war!

........ all of whom managed to secure alloy cages properly broached from solid. Quite possibly, at that time they couldn't afford the machinery to make proper cages...

Would be interested to know how cages can be broached??? - aren't they milled?

RE did some weird things - anyone who's tried to fathom why the twins oil pump setup was done like that will realise thsy were just different...

I have never seen the twin's oil pump, but I remember the singles had a worm driven plunger type pump (so did a few of the others - AJS etc.)

I think the fact that they now have ball bearings that survive turbocharger revs is bloody impressive...

I bet the aircraft engine industry did most of the research on that.

[Grumph]

Would be interested to know how cages can be broached??? - aren't they milled?
I have never seen the twin's oil pump, but I remember the singles had a worm driven plunger type pump (so did a few of the others - AJS etc.)

AFAIK alloy cages are initially slotted in a mill, yes. That leaves the slots unfinished on the ends so they're finished to length and final width in a vertical broach. Specialised machinery but..

The twins have two separate pumps. On a good day they work at the same time. Having pressure but no scavenge can be lived with for a short period...Having scavenge but no pressure can't. Experience has shown me at least that neither is adequate for the job. Seem to remember that Linsdell revised the pumps on the twin he built.

[guyhockley]

Definitely an oddball...

[Grumph]

That would make a nice rolling chassis for Norm Hayes wooden engine - which I think has already been mentioned here before.

[husaberg]

Tony Wilson-Jones who's quoted in that extract should have had his pencils seized and burned. He was responsible for some absolute horrors.
He's also dancing around the truth - postwar I doubt if anyone was using open ended bigend cages. He was trying to justify staying with the bush in the face of better bearings being made on modern machinery. RE's production numbers were pretty low by comparison with the rest of the UK bike manufacturers - all of whom managed to secure alloy cages properly broached from solid. Quite possibly, at that time they couldn't afford the machinery to make proper cages...
RE did some weird things - anyone who's tried to fathom why the twins oil pump setup was done like that will realise thsy were just different...

The vincent set up was rather odd wasn't it crowded with a spacer or something.
Anyone who read that article i posted on the RE GP5 Herman Meier tried to do will know how f-ed up the old british system was.

https://greasengasoline.files.wordpr.../09/117162.jpg

[Frits Overmars]

I think the fact that they now have ball bearings that survive turbocharger revs is bloody impressive.

I bet the aircraft engine industry did most of the research on that.

If I were a betting man, you'd be on. For example, the aerospace industry had trouble finding suitable bearings for their high-revving gyroscopes until they found what they needed at a Japanese manufacturer of VCR recorders .

[WilDun]

If I were a betting man, you'd be on. For example, the aerospace industry had trouble finding suitable bearings for their high-revving gyroscopes until they found what they needed at a Japanese manufacturer of VCR recorders .

Yes, probably you are right - but I was thinking more of turbine engines.
Possibly the best thing a company could do is swallow it's pride and latch on to using well researched similar products provided by companies who cater for the things that make money (ie the things that are sold in the biggest numbers) They can afford the research and are not particular who they sell their stuff to I guess. Companies who choose to ignore that simple fact do so at their own peril!
That is after all how companies like Triumph turned the name into a success again!

On the other hand, the Royal Enfield name survived by everything being sold, lock stock and barrel to India and allowing the mother company to sink into oblivion - when with a little forethought they could have done like Triumph (grew up from the ashes by outsourcing components initially) and instead they could have been selling bikes to India instead of the opposite happening!

Or...... they could have created a cult and got rich on bullshit and a "macho" image by adding frills and ape hangers, they already had the retro technology! (that has all been done successfully before!).

[WilDun]

Seems I have either made a profound statement ..... or just total bullshit? - either way there seems to be no answer!