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Thread: Oddball engines and prototypes

  1. #2161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crasherfromwayback View Post
    Need to shoot in manual mode.
    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    All good things take time Pete
    Only last year he wasnt able to post photos
    The old dog is learning all the new tricks.
    There is no manual mode. many have looked at it, no one has succeeded in turning the flash off. That was the best of 3 efforts.

    Prob won't be long before I lose this forum on this computer. Unsupported browser. Already lost others since the latest worldwide software patch.
    What money I do make, I make from knowing the old tricks...

  2. #2162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumph View Post
    There is no manual mode. many have looked at it, no one has succeeded in turning the flash off. That was the best of 3 efforts.

    .
    What camera are you packing mate?

  3. #2163
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    Behind the Doors in the late 90's HRC
    https://www.sportrider.com/behind-doors-hrc
    Not a mill in the whole place

    https://www.sportrider.com/sr-archiv...prix-racebikes
    RG700 and Honda RS500

    NSR500 VS NSR500V
    https://www.sportrider.com/sr-archiv...nsr500v#page-2
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  4. #2164
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    The HRC article looked like an assembly area,we'll likely never see just how the machines are fabricated..

    NSR500 appeared to be a parallel twin,wonder how the counterbalance was designed?

  5. #2165
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    Quote Originally Posted by 190mech View Post
    The HRC article looked like an assembly area,we'll likely never see just how the machines are fabricated..
    As its said in the article thats because all the fabrication is actually outsoursed.
    There is a poster on KB that has done some work for HRC and Honda he can confirm this for us.
    He confirmed all that was in an AMN bit i posted years ago.
    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...post1130257133
    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...post1130257136
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian d marge View Post
    That

    Paging Brian
    Quote Originally Posted by 190mech View Post
    NSR500 appeared to be a parallel twin,wonder how the counterbalance was designed?

    The NSR500V was a V twin single crank basically an overgrown NSR250 (although it may have had a balancer gear and maybe shaft by the look of it.)
    here is another write up on the 500 twin and four
    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...post1130223586
    Pretty sure its over 90 degrees in typical honda fashion for a open class bike, the inlets are side by side at the rear as on the 250s
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Album full of pics NSR500V
    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...p?albumid=4953
    The NSR500 four was a wide angle v four single crank. With a balance shaft on the later models the carbs are on the rear. (first models they were in the rear.)
    Click image for larger version. 

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    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...p?albumid=4837
    Album full of pics NSR500
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  6. #2166
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    AHH!I see now,,the twin side by side carbs fooled me,your pics 32 thru 34 showed why...The reed boxes must stand vertically which isnt the rule today,but then again the article spoke of milder tuning..Thanks for the good info Husa!!

  7. #2167
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    Quote Originally Posted by 190mech View Post
    AHH!I see now,,the twin side by side carbs fooled me,your pics 32 thru 34 showed why...The reed boxes must stand vertically which isnt the rule today,but then again the article spoke of milder tuning..Thanks for the good info Husa!!
    Sorry i don't agree.
    The NSR500V was more mildly tuned but it was a production racer twin, so it has less tuning potential and it was not designed for a works racer, But due its design helped by lower required weight under the rules it needed to be cheaper to build and cheaper for a privateer to maintain.ie less moving parts lower state of tune.

    The reeds are twisted 90 degrees not for any reason other than keeping the engine narrow and making them fit, which is mostly why its a V twin. This decreases its aerodynamic drag and mechanically allows it to stronger narrower crank with less bearings all of which lowers the rocking couple vibration. Another plus is it allows you to runs a linkage carbs. Also flow area of the reeds is still the same no matter what angle. only the case induction is potentially a little compomised,The Reeds are this way on a NSR250 as well as a KR1 for all the same reasons.
    Actually one of the reeds is also twisted on the RGV250 as well.
    Engine design is a series of compromises

  8. #2168
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    I agree on the vertical reeds allowing a narrow/stiffer engine,but isnt the front cylinder inlet tract much longer than the aft and also its path dealing with the spinning crank whereas the aft jug has a somewhat direct shot?Always thought a multi cylinder engine should be as equal between cylinders as possible..
    Looking at reed tracts like the modern kart engines made me ask about the vertical setup;
    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...tuner/page1844

    Cheers! John

  9. #2169
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    Quote Originally Posted by 190mech View Post
    I agree on the vertical reeds allowing a narrow/stiffer engine,but isnt the front cylinder inlet tract much longer than the aft and also its path dealing with the spinning crank whereas the aft jug has a somewhat direct shot?Always thought a multi cylinder engine should be as equal between cylinders as possible..
    Looking at reed tracts like the modern kart engines made me ask about the vertical setup;
    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...tuner/page1844

    Cheers! John
    Ideally but that’s not always the best solution a compromise was achieved just as the Reed intakes and angles on the NSR500 are compromised. The YZR500 and Cagiva 500 only effectively breathes through 4 of the 6 petals. Plus one of their cranks rotate in the opposite direction with harms the intake efficiency. But this lowers the gyro effects on handling

    Honda went the single crank route for less friction and weight then sort to minimise its issues. Width, gyro balance etc
    While Suzuki Yamaha and Cagiva went the twin crank contra rotating route which is narrower but heavier and larger and more complicated.
    Both designs are compromised in regards to intake design. the twin cranks are compromised with transfer widths as well.
    Thus the Hondas will make more power on account of having more room for wider transfers and less mechanical friction.
    But this power needs to be fitted into a chassis and steer which is why Honda gave away some HP with reversing the direction of the engine adding a balance shaft and closing up the firing order.
    But then again a square four design or twin crank v4 with Disc valves instead of reeds will make even more power again. But it will be wider with more mechanical and aero drag.
    It would also be a harder to package and harder to ride. if you were designing an engine for max power with reeds it would be a straight four like a TZ750, with a firing every 90 degrees but its irrelevant to have such an high power engine in a solo as its too wide and hard to package,plus to hard to ride as a solo, but that’s why the sidecars keep running the straight fours.
    Design is about minimising the compromises that effect performance. This is both Chassis and Engine.
    You need to do all this while maximising the benefits of the design path chosen.
    The Japanese are true masters at that.
    there is a great anology with a Rolls Royce jet engine that was developed using seperate teams each made the part they dealt with to provide optimial performance, but didn't consider how it would effecyt the other parts when the engine was put together it was rather crap.The seperate bits although optimal for individual performance wouldn't actually work with each other. They brought in a retired engineer to sort it out and get all the teams to actually listen to each other.

  10. #2170
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    Lloyd Taylor's fabricated sheet metal engines:

    http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/taylor1a.jpg
    through
    http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/taylor1g.jpg

    and

    http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/taylor2a.jpg
    through
    http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/taylor2f.jpg

    you can also go to the directory

    http://www.eurospares.com/graphics

    and then click on the file links.

    http://crosleyautoclub.com/Mighty_Tin.html

    I looked and found this PDF which is a higher quality scan of one of the articles than what I have on my website:

    http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/membe...o-Expo_1-6.pdf

    I know of one person who, about 20 years ago, was looking at Taylor's concept for making small utility and drone engines for a military contract. The engines could be very light which would be useful on an aero drone. He visited Taylor who was retired and working on his engines from a modest and not very fancy home shop.

    A little over 2000F is mentioned as the temperature for the furnace brazing which is within reach with many pottery/glass kilns or heat treatment ovens. I'd think a skilled weldor could probably build one without resorting to the furnace brazing.

    cheers,
    Michael

  11. #2171
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    Ive often thought about fabricating a 125cc 2 stroke cylinder with a steel barrel and sheet metal ducts and water jacket..With welding and brazing skills I would bet a decent one could be made in a home shop..

  12. #2172
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    Quote Originally Posted by 190mech View Post
    Ive often thought about fabricating a 125cc 2 stroke cylinder with a steel barrel and sheet metal ducts and water jacket..With welding and brazing skills I would bet a decent one could be made in a home shop..
    You're not the only one....Modern nickel bronze rods flow very well indeed and a lot of the "difficult" areas in a fabrication would fill by capillary action IMO.
    I'd think that a relatively low temp stress relief heat treatment would be needed to keep the bore round.

  13. #2173
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    4140 is a common metal for aircraft cylinders,4130 is easier to work with.Any ideas for a suitable steel barrel material for a 2 stroke one off build?

  14. #2174
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    Quote Originally Posted by 190mech View Post
    4140 is a common metal for aircraft cylinders,4130 is easier to work with.Any ideas for a suitable steel barrel material for a 2 stroke one off build?
    Mild steel. It's been used before as cylinder material. Doesn't wear too badly, easily worked too. If desired it can be hard chromed or nicasil coated.

    Iron pipe is also a possibilty. Given the right flux, it bronze welds well.

  15. #2175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumph View Post
    I'd think that a relatively low temp stress relief heat treatment would be needed to keep the bore round.
    The TNT article says they used .13" wall 4130 cylinders and the engine comes out of the furnace stress relieved and accurate to within .01".

    Would a 2T need a thicker steel cylinder because of the openings for the ports, or will the ports brazed/welded to the cylinder stiffen it up? All steels are pretty much the same stiffness, so mild steel on the liner with plating to help the wear sounds reasonable to me.

    The ports could be done by hammerforming, no need for a press and sturdy die. I think copper plating could be done as a DIY process.

    The one drawback I see is that the thin walls are probably not going to lend themselves to experimental porting, there may not be enough metal to allow grinding.

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