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Thread: Oddball engines and prototypes

  1. #2251
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    The Ariel Arrow 250cc two stroke twin of the early sixties was new and a very different attempt at motorcycle design, with a mixture of clever ideas (which should have been developed more) and some not so clever ideas as well. It couldn't be classed as just a prototype of course, it did sell very well for a few years.
    http://sump-publishing.co.uk/ariel%20arrow.htm

    This is how I saw it at the time:-
    Its excellent handling with its trailing link forks and very stiff pressed steel frame, unfortunately was compromised by it's (too small) wheels and I was forever dragging everything on the road if I leaned hard into a corner! - poor brakes, smokey two stroke iron barrelled engine (which itself actually had some good innovative features to assist with maintenance).
    However, any of these innovations were badly compromised by one or two cheapskate ideas which cancelled out any of the benefits the new design might have brought to us!

    The "cheapskate" solutions used in it which bothered me most were:-

    At first glance a good idea and the way it was arranged was fine - the two (seperate) cranks were joined in the middle (but with a keyed taper arrangement held together by an Allen head bolt. This bolt was accessed through the right hand (hollow) crankshaft by an Allen key).
    However, even though it was keyed, it tended to move a little, compromising the ignnition timing - probably splines or Hirth Couplings could have been used instead.
    Each crank could be extracted by removing the crankcase sides containing the main bearings) - the main crankcase and gearbox was all one piece.

    The big end bearings were of the crowded roller type (no cages).

    Single carb, ( to me, a two carb setup would have been a better idea).

    The pathetic two transfer ports were incredibly small by today's standards.

    The plain bearing used in the gearbox (made of sintered iron), was prone to break up and of course the traditional type Burman (I think) four speed gear cluster itself was already outdated, especially when used in conjunction with a two stroke twin, - not a great marriage! The equally old fashioned chain primary drive was not really the way to go at that time either! but the fact that a forward thinking design was still being manufactured with these old traditional ideas still incorporated (because of management restrictions no doubt!) was a bad idea, especially in the days of the upcoming Japanese invasion! - sad but true!

    Still loved it though!


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    Strokers Galore!

  2. #2252
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    22nd November 2013 - 16:32
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    Yeah Will, the Ariel Arrow was, to me, sort of no different to the Ariel/BSA 3. Clever in some ways, but not in every way.
    Was it some dude, Herman Meier (?) who modified them for racing? Still with CI barrels, scant cooling fins, probably not too durable, but I guess the BSA Bantams were no better in this regard.
    Still good on them for going for something adventurous. However, I get the impression that the management of typical era pommy companies was by stuffy, pipe smoking, fat wankers that were quite disconnected with the needs of the market and even their employees. Sorry Guy.
    "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm.”

  3. #2253
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken seeber View Post
    However, I get the impression that the management of typical era pommy companies was by stuffy, pipe smoking, fat wankers that were quite disconnected with the needs of the market and even their employees. Sorry Guy.
    No need to apologise, absolutely spot on.
    (Working class) Guy

  4. #2254
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    Think I've mentioned this, before, but a mate of mine insisted that his Arrow was 'big bang/twingled'.
    Ali barrels and 6 speed boxes available nowadays, of course.

  5. #2255
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    Quote Originally Posted by 190mech View Post
    Guy,
    Thanks for posting the Bantam fabricated port/cylinder link!I would like to build a similar setup for the sluggish 90cc scooter engines,,it gives me hope that other crazy folk are out there doing the same thing!!
    I'm pretty sure Trevor Amos from the Bantam Racing Club follows the ESE thread - he knows a million times more than me about the little cluckers

  6. #2256
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    Usual apologies if everyone's already seen these...
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  7. #2257
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    More from the vault...
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  8. #2258
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    I like the shot of the Ariel going round (maybe?) a modern sportsbike!
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  9. #2259
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    Not very good quality, sorry.
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  10. #2260
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyhockley View Post
    Not very good quality, sorry.
    I had not seen any of those ones I have posted Ian Cramps fathers 58 VMCC winning one the Classer racer road test version and the story of the O'Rouke Meier one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  11. #2261
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    I'll stop soon, honest!
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  12. #2262
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    GUY, I didn't realize that there were so many photos of Arrows around!

    I used to be obsessed with them after Hermann Meier's (that's correct Ken) TT effort pre 1965 and had almost built a racer by that time (with ideas for rotary valves as well - which would not have been too difficult for someone to do on an Arrow - except for me of course).
    If the Jap stuff hadn't taken over completely, I'm sure someone would have come up with rotary valves on an Arrow (maybe someone did?).
    I also had one when I moved here to New Zealand in 1966 and had big plans for that ........... then the Suzuki T20 came along and the rest is history! - unfortunately, this bike showed me just how inadequate the Arrow was and how it had not been properly developed -from a very promising start!
    The T20 had it's problems too but development continued and this type carried on into the T250/T350 and so on.

    I wish someone would address all the Arrow's problems today, just to show how it might have been - I know that this has been done here and there in racers of course, but I also mean as a different looking road bike. (don't think the styling was 100%, especially with those huge guards and the small wheels - and those brakes!

    On the other hand, a complete re-design using the same style forks and frame might be in order!
    Strokers Galore!

  13. #2263
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    I was given a pile of old Sport Aviation magazines from the 70's to 80's,much interesting reading in them when people actually built stuff in their garage!I found an article about a new engine design called the "rotary vee",did a google search and found some vids;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvrke7wblQs

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFr81UKeviM

  14. #2264
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    Quote Originally Posted by 190mech View Post
    I was given a pile of old Sport Aviation magazines from the 70's to 80's,much interesting reading in them when people actually built stuff in their garage!I found an article about a new engine design called the "rotary vee",did a google search and found some vids;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvrke7wblQs

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFr81UKeviM
    That engine caught my attention when it featured in " practical mechanics" (I think) in the seventies and it seemed a good idea at the time. - I think it was also mentioned somewhere earlier, in this thread.

    The trouble with most rotary engines (including the early radial rotaries) is that with rotating cylinders there is always the problem of collecting the exhaust gas and disposing of it properly (in the road vehicle scenario). - not so bad up in an aircraft!
    The prototype Wankel also suffered from this problem till they changed it to a stationary housing (but that's another story I guess).

    Always seemed to me that this idea could have done with the barrels being connected by a bevel gear to keep them aligned to each other and also to facilitate a power take off (it's a very awkward layout otherwise).

    Then as always, that's only my opinion!
    Strokers Galore!

  15. #2265
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    Here is a few to add to the arrow leader file
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

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