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Thread: Oddball engines and prototypes

  1. #2266
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  2. #2267
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    Thanks for all that info from you guys and that article from Hermann Meier himself puts to rest some of the misconceptions I had - the main one being the suitability of the crowded roller big end bearings - I never would have believed that they could have lasted a TT race! For those days, those guys were cutting edge engineers and tuners and were able to do well even with the "not so great" stuff they had to start off with and being able to be successful without any really drastic modification, just by incrimental improvement and commonsense - almost as good as the guys on ESE!

    Anyway, the good old Arrow still looks great to me!
    Strokers Galore!

  3. #2268
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilDun View Post
    Thanks for all that info from you guys and that article from Hermann Meier himself puts to rest some of the misconceptions I had - the main one being the suitability of the crowded roller big end bearings - I never would have believed that they could have lasted a TT race! For those days, those guys were cutting edge engineers and tuners and were able to do well even with the "not so great" stuff they had to start off with and being able to be successful without any really drastic modification, just by incrimental improvement and commonsense - almost as good as the guys on ESE!

    Anyway, the good old Arrow still looks great to me!
    If you believe jennings prior to the advent of silver plated cadges crowded could be better.
    Two Stroke TUNER’S HANDBOOK 26
    Piston acceleration at high speeds is also applied to the bearing cage, and it may shatter under the strain - which sends a shower of particles from the broken cage and loose needles down into the crankcase. The debris thus liberated invariably gets pumped up through the transfer ports, into the cylinder, and more often than not a roller will get trapped hanging half out of a port by the piston with dire consequences to both. Yamaha's TD1 was particularly prone to small end bearing cage failures, and I learned the hard way to replace these bearings if I saw over 11,000 rpm on the tachometer even for a moment, for their cages required only a moment's battering before cracks would start to spread and outright disintegration soon followed even if I indulged in no more excursions past the red-line. This difficulty has been overcome with cages made of tougher material; it is possible to accomplish the same thing by using crowded needles and no cage at all, which does require that a washer be fitted on each side of the connecting rod, to take up clearance so that the rollers cannot escape. Getting the thing assembled (with the roller glued in place with grease) is enough to make strong men weep with frustration, but it absolutely insures reliability at this point in the engine and is a measure worth remembering if problems with broken wrist-pin bearing cages do occur. McCulloch, the chain-saw people, have used an arrangement similar to the one just described for years, but they have reasons other than simply working around bearing cage failures at the wrist-pin end of the rod. It was discovered at McCulloch that failures at the crankpin bearing were traceable to the thrust washers most manufacturers of twostroke engines use to center the rod on the crankpin. These washers usually are made of brass, or steel with a copper coating, and they do not find high rubbing speeds and scanty lubrication at all agreeable. At very high crankshaft speeds, they register their protest by overheating, and this causes a rise in temperature all around the connecting rod's big end, which thins the oil present enough to create yet more friction, more overheating, until at last the thrust washers, roller bearing and cage are hot enough to “flash” the oil. At that point, lubrication is nil and friction quickly melts the bearing cage and wears flats on the rollers. McCulloch's engineers reasoned that the point of failure could be pushed upward materially simply by removing the thrust washers, which is what they did. Of course, the connecting rod still had to be centered over the crank, but this task was given to a pair of thrust washers up inside the piston. The improvement in terms of elevating the McCulloch kart engine's maximum crank speed was in the order of 1500 rpm, and it is worth noting that Yamaha borrowed this idea for use in the 17,000 rpm GP engines thecompany raced in 1968. It is interesting that in those engines, the piston rings were only 0.6mm in thickness. Crankpin bearing failures also stem from the use of excessively heavy bearing cages. Sheer rotational speed is not enough to burst a cage of such small diameter and mass, but the fact that the cage must accelerate and decelerate, relative to the crankpin as the connecting rod swings, will cause difficulties unless the bearing cage is very light. In effect, the rollers must push the cage up to speed and then slow it, and if the cage has enough inertia it will resist this pushing and pulling enough to skid the rollers - at which point they momentarily become a plain bearing - a job for which they are poorly constituted. The skidding rollers generate a lot of heat, through friction, and the heat leads the bearing into the same deteriorating cycle to outright failure as was outlined for the thrust washers. Most modern engines have steel crankpin bearing cages, copper- or tin-plated to provide a low-friction surface to bear against the rollers, crankpin and connecting rod eye. These replace the phosphor - bronze cages of the recent past - which replaced the inelegant aluminum and brass cages of a yet-earlier era. But the best current “big-end” bearing cages are made of titanium and silver-plated. Experimenters with near-unlimited funds may like to try titanium bearing cages, but when having them made they should know that the bearing retaining slots must be machined with edges parallel to within 1/200 with each other and with the crankpin (assuming a parallel condition between cage and crankpin axis). It is not a job for someone with a bench-vise and a file. On the other hand, if employing silver-plated titanium cages and moving the thrust washers from the crankpin to the piston will elevate your engine's red-line by 2000 rpm, then they clearly will pay dividends in horsepower - if port-timing, etc., is adjusted correspondingly.
    http://www.amrca.com/tech/tuners.pdf



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  4. #2269
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    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  5. #2270
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilDun View Post
    If the Jap stuff hadn't taken over completely, I'm sure someone would have come up with rotary valves on an Arrow (maybe someone did?).
    There are a couple of disc valve Arrows over here, at least that I know of. One is claimed to have been done in period, the other is an ongoing project.
    There are a few reedvalvers around, too. A set of converted cases went for £200 on eBay fairly recently.
    I've seen a picture of a water-cooling version. A mate of mine offered up my TZ250 barrel to his engine and the bore centres of the Ariel are much closer together. Obviously so, when you think about the main bearing setups, but not a lot of room for decent transfers.
    Then there are various triple and four cylinder Ariel's kicking around... They do seem to inspire tinkering, pity mine got stolen!

  6. #2271
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    Husa, have you already posted any stuff about 3, 4, or more cylinder Ariels? Think we've had the V12 on a Kiwibiker thread.
    On one of the posts you linked to, you asked if anyone had seen an Excelsior twin or triple.
    When I worked in the bike shop, we had a customer who "liked" 2 strokes, enjoyed tinkering, and nowadays would probably be diagnosed OCD.
    He had a succession of bikes and then started getting earache from 'er indoors about more comfort, bla, bla, bla...
    He bought a Berkley three wheeler with the 2 stroke twin engine, which became a triple fairly quickly.
    It was a beautiful job, really nicely done. He took me for a (frightening) ride in it, and, given who/what he was it was turbine smooth and ran perfectly.
    Couple of amusing follow ups, I had nothing to do the engine, but, small town, I knew where all the homers had been done. Year or so later, working at the artificial leg factory (yes, really!), a young kid started there who turned out to be matey's nephew. According to him the Bekeley was a 1200, had a Mini crankshaft(!) and other amazing "facts".
    Eventually the wife of our hero (I can't remember his name...) got fed up of being thrown sideway in the plastic fantastic and insisted he bought "a proper car". He got a Saab 2 stroke!
    Moved away, lost touch, often wondered what he moved onto next....

    PS. Do you say "homer" over there for private jobs done at work?

  7. #2272
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyhockley View Post
    Husa, have you already posted any stuff about 3, 4, or more cylinder Ariels? Think we've had the V12 on a Kiwibiker thread.
    On one of the posts you linked to, you asked if anyone had seen an Excelsior twin or triple.
    When I worked in the bike shop, we had a customer who "liked" 2 strokes, enjoyed tinkering, and nowadays would probably be diagnosed OCD.
    He had a succession of bikes and then started getting earache from 'er indoors about more comfort, bla, bla, bla...
    He bought a Berkley three wheeler with the 2 stroke twin engine, which became a triple fairly quickly.
    It was a beautiful job, really nicely done. He took me for a (frightening) ride in it, and, given who/what he was it was turbine smooth and ran perfectly.
    Couple of amusing follow ups, I had nothing to do the engine, but, small town, I knew where all the homers had been done. Year or so later, working at the artificial leg factory (yes, really!), a young kid started there who turned out to be matey's nephew. According to him the Bekeley was a 1200, had a Mini crankshaft(!) and other amazing "facts".
    Eventually the wife of our hero (I can't remember his name...) got fed up of being thrown sideway in the plastic fantastic and insisted he bought "a proper car". He got a Saab 2 stroke!
    Moved away, lost touch, often wondered what he moved onto next....

    PS. Do you say "homer" over there for private jobs done at work?
    I think most of what i had or others had posted are those links are at the top of the page
    Over here we call a job done at home or on the sly a "foreigner"
    Someone (might have been you) posted the square four batam framed RG500 bottomed ended Arrow.
    A few have posted the inline four sammy has, plus the one from the sidecar.



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  8. #2273
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyhockley View Post
    .........................Eventually the wife of our hero (I can't remember his name...) got fed up of being thrown sideway in the plastic fantastic and insisted he bought "a proper car". He got a Saab 2 stroke!
    Moved away, lost touch, often wondered what he moved onto next....
    PS. Do you say "homer" over there for private jobs done at work?
    Yes, we also call them "homers" here too! I was well known for doing homers at work, I even built a bike there using their pipe benders, brazing equipment, etc. ( but not their crappy furniture tube) I used cold drawn seamless tube.
    Fact is, I went to that furniture factory with the express purpose of learning to MIG weld and braze (bronze weld) and guess what we (it was a joint project with a mate) put in that frame, .... two Ariel Arrow engines!! - wasnt a howling success though, but fun!
    I had many jobs in those young days (early twenties) all just to learn a few relevant skills for motorcycles, aircraft etc, - no I didn't build an aircraft, but I did a deal on a half finished one and when I told my then new wife about it, I very quickly had to go and tell the guy that I couldn't buy it "because of circumstances".

    BTW, I probably told that story somewhere before (that's what happens when you start to get doddery!).

    And there was the time when ...................................
    I forget

    Ah..... yes, I bought a Suzuki T20 in 1968 (which I thought was the fastest thing on the road) and a guy in a DKW triple 2 stroke (car that is - same engine as the SAAB) passed me on a straight road when I was going flat out! - bet it wasn't standard!
    Strokers Galore!

  9. #2274
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    Re. uncaged little ends, again, the Bantam racing boys sometimes use a rod piston combo that has no small end bearing available so they use loose rollers - 54mm pistons @ 10,000-12,000rpm.
    At least some Rotax Microlight engines used loose rollers, too. Doesn't mean they're good for big ends, though!

  10. #2275
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    Years ago, the main 2 stroke outboards, OMC and Mercury, used crowded roller for the piston pin (little end) and because they used a one piece crank, they used a fracture split rod and a split (2 piece) big end cage. This was either some polyamide (Torlon) or polyimide injection moulding. These were very reliable. A crowded roller can take lots of load, but just doesn't like the rubbing between rollers at high speed.
    "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm.”

  11. #2276
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    Don't know if this link will work from Jacindaland or if ebay's algorithm will mess it up;
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ariel-Arr...p2047675.l2557

    Also,
    http://forum.arielownersmcc.co.uk/vi...hp?f=20&t=7105

    From The Ariel Owners Club Forum - Two Strokes;
    http://forum.arielownersmcc.co.uk/vi...164a3b17a5bbb8

  12. #2277
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken seeber View Post
    because they used a one piece crank, they used a fracture split rod and a split (2 piece) big end cage.
    McCulloch kart engines were the same, weren't they?

    In the UK lots of people got their knickers in a twist when Suzuki 250 twins were homologated for Class IV karts so I was a little surprised when I googled "reed Valve Ariel Arrow" to find a vintage kart site that said Ariels were homologated in 1966. But it went on to say that they were easily outperformed by the spanish singles so I guess it wasn't such a problem.

  13. #2278
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    To break it up a bit, here's a modified Ariel
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  14. #2279
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    As easy as 3, 4, 6?
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  15. #2280
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    A few random bits
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