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Thread: Oddball engines and prototypes

  1. #2506
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    Also for Wil, the KRM and a link to a VR1000 article

    https://www.sportrider.com/hog-wild?CMPID=01

    I remember reading another, Crashcart, I think, article which quoted Mike Eatough, the frame designer.
    He researched lots of different profiles for the frame spars and could find no advantage to extrusions with internal ribs so went with a plain rectangular section.
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  2. #2507
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    I owned Harley stock years ago when baby boomers could afford to live out their childhood dreams of motorcycle ownership. I loved the annual report. These days the image is fading along with the riders. I see they are building an electric motorcycle. Do you think millennials will give up their smart phones for one?

    Lohring Miller

  3. #2508
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyhockley View Post
    Mike Eatough (Tony Foale's ex "apprentice"/plagiarist?)
    Guy, that was Nigel Leaper who went to Waddon and then Team Heron Suzuki after working for Tony .

    Eatough built many frames for CCM and then his own branded frames, and later moved to H-D where I think he designed the VR1000 frame. He was also quite a good MX rider.

    cheers,
    Michael
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  4. #2509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Moore View Post
    Guy, that was Nigel Leaper who went to Waddon and then Team Heron Suzuki after working for Tony .

    Eatough built many frames for CCM and then his own branded frames, and later moved to H-D where I think he designed the VR1000 frame. He was also quite a good MX rider.

    cheers,
    Michael
    I realised that after I had posted but you had already replied before I got back to the computer!

    Now edited...

  5. #2510
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyhockley View Post
    Also for Wil, the KRM and a link to a VR1000 article

    https://www.sportrider.com/hog-wild?CMPID=01

    I remember reading another, Crashcart, I think, article which quoted Mike Eatough, the frame designer.
    He researched lots of different profiles for the frame spars and could find no advantage to extrusions with internal ribs so went with a plain rectangular section.
    That HD is a great looking machine and deserves a better place in the motorcycle scene, but i can only comment on what I can see and read, so my judgement may probably be a bit limited!

    Talking about visual, in my younger days, you could say I was very envious of the ability of Laurie Watts to produce those fantastic drawings in the sixties - I can do freehand skethes enough to understand, but those are fantastic, although not purely freehand sketches and (as I understand it) produced from 3D drawings done on a board.
    Freedom of speech is important but if what we say is considered incorrect by our peers, they will quickly put us right.
    P.C. will eventually destroy our right to tell the truth.

  6. #2511
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    Quote Originally Posted by guyhockley View Post
    Also for Wil, the KRM and a link to a VR1000 article

    https://www.sportrider.com/hog-wild?CMPID=01

    I remember reading another, Crashcart, I think, article which quoted Mike Eatough, the frame designer.
    He researched lots of different profiles for the frame spars and could find no advantage to extrusions with internal ribs so went with a plain rectangular section.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Moore View Post
    Guy, that was Nigel Leaper who went to Waddon and then Team Heron Suzuki after working for Tony .

    Eatough built many frames for CCM and then his own branded frames, and later moved to H-D where I think he designed the VR1000 frame. He was also quite a good MX rider.

    cheers,
    Michael
    I think there were quite a few variations on the VR1000 frame including i think a thin wall steel version.
    I never buy into the Foale vs others spine frame as there were plenty about prior to Foale
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    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  7. #2512
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    As with leading link forks, Tony makes no claims to having originated spine frames.

    When Dr. Roe threatened Tony with a patent infringement suit (Roe had obtained a set of Tony's LLFs and then tested them before writing the patent document, apparently in a way that made Tony's forks a potential infringement), Tony told the solicitor that he would be happy to go to court and tell everyone about Guzzi, Sprayson, Greeves and everyone else he knew of who made LLFs. He never heard from them again. I'm sure he'd be equally happy to tell people what he knows of the history of spine frames too. Tony is well aware that the 1950s GP Guzzis had spine frames before he built his first one as a youth in Australia and he was quite familiar with the Aermacchi frame since he was racing a 350.

    The thing with Waddon, as the clipping shows, is that Leaper worked (not long) for Tony and then when he went to Waddon they were the ones that claimed the ground-breaking advancement of a spine frame with LLFs. Tony took one of his old frames (which he wasn't making any longer) and put it on display at the show to to have a laugh at Waddon's expense.

    John Wittner visited Tony in England for several days to check out his big Guzzi spine frame with floating rear gear case before deciding not to buy one. Tony was surprised to find out that Wittner later had a ground-breaking big Guzzi spine frame with floating rear gear case (I think by that time Tony was in Spain and out of bikes and I mentioned it to him) that looked a lot like his.

    As long as I've known Tony he's been quite willing to give credit for good ideas where credit is due, and not claim other people's work as his own. He's got enough of his own accomplishments to not need to pinch the credit for those of other people.

    cheers,
    Michael
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  8. #2513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Moore View Post
    As with leading link forks, Tony makes no claims to having originated spine frames.

    When Dr. Roe threatened Tony with a patent infringement suit (Roe had obtained a set of Tony's LLFs and then tested them before writing the patent document, apparently in a way that made Tony's forks a potential infringement), Tony told the solicitor that he would be happy to go to court and tell everyone about Guzzi, Sprayson, Greeves and everyone else he knew of who made LLFs. He never heard from them again. I'm sure he'd be equally happy to tell people what he knows of the history of spine frames too. Tony is well aware that the 1950s GP Guzzis had spine frames before he built his first one as a youth in Australia and he was quite familiar with the Aermacchi frame since he was racing a 350.

    The thing with Waddon, as the clipping shows, is that Leaper worked (not long) for Tony and then when he went to Waddon they were the ones that claimed the ground-breaking advancement of a spine frame with LLFs. Tony took one of his old frames (which he wasn't making any longer) and put it on display at the show to to have a laugh at Waddon's expense.

    John Wittner visited Tony in England for several days to check out his big Guzzi spine frame with floating rear gear case before deciding not to buy one. Tony was surprised to find out that Wittner later had a ground-breaking big Guzzi spine frame with floating rear gear case (I think by that time Tony was in Spain and out of bikes and I mentioned it to him) that looked a lot like his.

    As long as I've known Tony he's been quite willing to give credit for good ideas where credit is due, and not claim other people's work as his own. He's got enough of his own accomplishments to not need to pinch the credit for those of other people.

    cheers,
    Michael
    It wasn't a dig at Tony I was a more i ddn't buy into the premise i never read the text only looked at the picture.
    Way back in the chassis thread i posted an old HRD frame single shock cantilever 1920's i think i even seen an earlier one the other day on a boardtrack racer or something not much is new most thinks have been done before. from memory it was a dig at Yamaha discovery of the single shock. i also brought up the other spine frames when someone made a coment in reference to the waddon previously.

    i have Mr Foales book and i really enjoyed it. i cant find it now either likely lent it to someone. But it was a great read as it demistifed a lot of things. for me esp head angles etc.
    I often used his website as well. for calculations
    At the tme of Dr John and the floating gear case he also viewed another racer in Europe running a similar system (i cant recall who it was though i am not sure it was a Guzzi maybe a BMW or something Saxon done)
    i think it way have been who the Telelever was borrowed off as well so Saxon?

    There was an interesting swingarm and frame set up i found a while back by a Brit outfit in the late 70's it was a parralagram set up used on a Z1 I think powered endurance racer.
    I think It was black with a Nickel or Chrome frame i cant recall if i posted it it had an interesting front end as well but both things had likly been tried before many moons ago just like Disc brakes on Douglas and 4v heads on all sorts of harleys triumphs and Rudges.
    I googled the bike at the time but failed to turn up much at all.
    When i get some strength back in my arm i will try and find it again



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  9. #2514
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    MV Agusta had a shaft drive four with parallelogram rear suspension in 1950, so the concept is a good 70 years old. Arturo Magni continued to offer that kind of rear end for Guzzis 20+ years ago,

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    and then there's the BMWs with floating gear case.

    Hossack and Saxon (Nigel Hill?) both saw their FFEs used by BMW. At least Norman got a trip to Germany to see the Six debuted, but that was it. I don't know that Saxon got any recognition. Being a giant corporation must be very liberating, you have such freedom to do whatever you want to do.

  10. #2515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Moore View Post
    MV Agusta had a shaft drive four with parallelogram rear suspension in 1950, so the concept is a good 70 years old. Arturo Magni continued to offer that kind of rear end for Guzzis 20+ years ago,

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    and then there's the BMWs with floating gear case.

    Hossack and Saxon (Nigel Hill?) both saw their FFEs used by BMW. At least Norman got a trip to Germany to see the Six debuted, but that was it. I don't know that Saxon got any recognition. Being a giant corporation must be very liberating, you have such freedom to do whatever you want to do.
    I added some stuff that never saved the first time.
    i think the V6 Laverda might have as well. likely the velocette Roarer too



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  11. #2516
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    The later Laverda Sei had a very long swing arm pivoting about at the midline of the engine to help stop jacking in the rear suspension. I can't recall if it was a floating gearcase or not but I don't see signs of that in the attached photo.

    I think the other bike you mentioned is the Laverda triple engined Nessie. The later Kawasaki used a long single-sided swing arm.
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  12. #2517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Moore View Post
    The later Laverda Sei had a very long swing arm pivoting about at the midline of the engine to help stop jacking in the rear suspension. I can't recall if it was a floating gearcase or not but I don't see signs of that in the attached photo.

    I think the other bike you mentioned is the Laverda triple engined Nessie. The later Kawasaki used a long single-sided swing arm.
    I think it was something like alcorn alcorna alcore.....
    it looked like this at the rear only not as pronounced but i cant remember what the front was but it was bloody interesting but still looked conventional (important for marketing types)

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    The steering pivoted of struts back to the frame. i think it was similar to the leter telever BMW or the Aprilias set up like the Saxon and likly others
    but anyway this one looks far older. but it makes sense.
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    That Amrerican OHC short stroke BMW that used to mess up the staus quo in early AMA clasics i think had a floating case rear diff as well (i think) leiblehmier sp or something.



    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  13. #2518
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    Found the front anyway on Foales site lol
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    I will scan and post it later as i have found the old mag now too.
    what i was remembering wrong as struts are hydraulic dampers.
    Altec used to make tanks and stuff inc seeley Forks stuff for Dunstall. according to the blurb
    The rear end is actually three piece pics to follow.

    follow
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    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  14. #2519
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    Thanks for those scans. I'd never seen a photo showing the back end of the Altec.

  15. #2520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Moore View Post
    Thanks for those scans. I'd never seen a photo showing the back end of the Altec.
    I can only deduce seeing as we are all not running around on Altec front and rear suspension maybe it wasn't a massive leap foward.
    The rear makes sense though although i am not sure if you could dial in squat with ecentric links i guess you could. it would also give the cranked over bending additional suspension anti chatter that goes in and out of fashion.



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