Oddball engines and prototypes

[WilDun]

One I follow and in another I participated.
In which I participated I regret that it is in decline (it has been a long time since we talked about the two-stroke engine). This happens because of the little interest in transforming the two-stroke engine into an ecological engine

There is a reason for everything, and in the case of the two stroke engine, it is not being developed any more for general use in motorcycles - that is because it has become unfashionable, having been overcome by pressure from the "Greenies" and this, combined with pressure from the four stroke manufacturers has actually worked!

Also people (especially impressionable young guys (kids?), having too much money to throw around on those expensive four strokes!, has seen the demise of the two stroke in this particular area.

I think that because of the fantastic power/weight ratio, the light aircraft scene etc would favour the two stroke and it could have a good future there.

The fact that there is still the smoking exhaust is still an issue (and that can't be denied) - this will keep the two stroke off the roads (and consequently the racetracks).

The other problem of high fuel consumption is being dealt to by people like Flettner (ie Neil), and his fuel injection system.

I firmly believe that there is a future for the two stroke if it can be used as a constant speed power source for hybrids (ie driving a generator/motor combination) - with the constant speed (running at it's efficient 'sweet spot' revs) it could then be rid it of all the complication of extra bits and pieces required in trying to make it perform over a wide rev range.

How logical that could all be in the case of bikes, I dunno - diehard bikers will probably reject all that and will continue to want to ride old school inefficient 'heaps', only for the sake of being fashionable - reason or sensible engineering doesn't come in to it - just presentation!
Eventually that decision and lack of foresight could bring about the demise of bikes altogether, also their own demise as a group, - all through leaving themselves open to the lawmakers!

This applies to both four stroke and two stroke of course, but the two stroke is gradually becoming a dead duck!.

I do realise it's just another rant (JAR? ) of course, but it may actually have some truths in it!.

[ceci]

The fact that there is still the smoking exhaust is still an issue (and that can't be denied) - this will keep the two stroke off the roads (and consequently the racetracks).

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The last approach on that facebook page to solve that problem is the use of hydrogen as fuel.
Hydrogen combustion residues are not harmful.
In order to use this fuel successfully, the engines have to be supercharged.
The hard part is overfeeding them and not doubling fuel losses

[Frits Overmars]

The last approach on that facebook page to solve that problem is the use of hydrogen as fuel. Hydrogen combustion residues are not harmful. In order to use this fuel successfully, the engines have to be supercharged.

For clean hydrogen combustion you will not only have to carry the fuel, but also the oxygen. Burning hydrogen in a high-pressure air-filled chamber will produce H20 and NOx. And supercharging will gladly contribute to the high pressure.

You don't really believe those videos of some politician drinking water that comes out of a car tailpipe, do you? They don't like drinking nitric acid any more than you and I do, and they're no fools; they are only depending on fools who believe them.

[WilDun]

The last approach on that facebook page to solve that problem is the use of hydrogen as fuel.
Hydrogen combustion residues are not harmful.
In order to use this fuel successfully, the engines have to be supercharged.
The hard part is overfeeding them and not doubling fuel losses

The smoke does not come from the petrol, it comes from the oil in the petrol - the pollutants in the oil are obvious of course - they can be seen, but the pollutants from the fuel are unseen and in order to overcome these problems I think the two stroke will in fact need a total transformation to ever make a comeback - and to think, I was a total convert to two strokes in the sixties - but we ignored the wider picture and concentrated solely on racing, forgetting that the road bikes were the 'bread and butter' !

[lohring]

I'm a huge two stroke fan, but I'm afraid that electric power is on the way to replacing IC engines. Batteries will provide the electricity at the low end while fuel cells will probably be the answer at the high power end. The big two stroke diesels in ships will probably be the last to go. Even motorcycle manufacturers are seriously considering electric power as we traditionalists die off. The IC engine has had a great run, but it's ending.

I recently visited the Newport Car Museum. My childhood friend volunteers there. We reminisced about the several Pontiac GTOs he drove in the 60s and 70s as presents from his father, a Pontiac dealer. The only muscle car in the collection from that era to the present that could out accelerate my Tesla Model 3 was the Dodge Demon. Even many of the Corvetts, Cobras, and exotic cars in the collection were slower, not to mention less economical. I think museums are where the great IC cars will end up, like horse drawn carriages. Hobbyists will always own some IC cars, but like horses, they won't be for routine use.

Lohring Miller

[ceci]

For clean hydrogen combustion you will not only have to carry the fuel, but also the oxygen. Burning hydrogen in a high-pressure air-filled chamber will produce H20 and NOx. And supercharging will gladly contribute to the high pressure.

You don't really believe those videos of some politician drinking water that comes out of a car tailpipe, do you? They don't like drinking nitric acid any more than you and I do, and they're no fools; they are only depending on fools who believe them.

I have not seen that video you say.
I who have seen these are (it's no use to you, they are in Spanish. But to me it is)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMtYhftVqoM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_iIFnCoJj0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDCFAc2tJPo

But they say what you said here.

[WilDun]

I'm a huge two stroke fan, but I'm afraid that electric power is on the way to replacing IC engines. Batteries will provide the electricity at the low end while fuel cells will probably be the answer at the high power end. The big two stroke diesels in ships will probably be the last to go. Even motorcycle manufacturers are seriously considering electric power as we traditionalists die off. The IC engine has had a great run, but it's ending.

I recently visited the Newport Car Museum. My childhood friend volunteers there. We reminisced about the several Pontiac GTOs he drove in the 60s and 70s as presents from his father, a Pontiac dealer. The only muscle car in the collection from that era to the present that could out accelerate my Tesla Model 3 was the Dodge Demon. Even many of the Corvetts, Cobras, and exotic cars in the collection were slower, not to mention less economical. I think museums are where the great IC cars will end up, like horse drawn carriages. Hobbyists will always own some IC cars, but like horses, they won't be for routine use.

Lohring Miller

Yes I agree that electric power is on the way big time but batteries are still the problem (weight, fire danger, and range) and before someone says they have a long range - the extra weight needed to achieve this is a penalty! (BTW I only suspect that - but don't know that!).
This currently is the case with the racing E bikes - but wouldn't it be great if the two stroke overcame it's "greenie" problems and was used as a lightweight powerplant driving a generator in one of those with batteries being discarded (not being needed for low speeds in this role) - so losing heaps of weight and creating some decent longer races? ...... then everyone will be happy!

Before I forget, - Mazda has been very quiet about their HCCI engine which was supposed to be put into production in their Mazda 3 car - anybody know what is happening there?

[ken seeber]

I’ve been thinking about smoke lately and think that it is not something inherent in the 2 stroke engine, but just the way it passes thru the engine.

My thoughts are that fully combusted oil burns cleanly The key reasoning to this was an observation at Orbital many years ago. This was based on the smoke generation, evident in the exhaust, of the original “rotary” style Orbital engine. What we did to understand this a bit better was to feed raw oil into the intake of a 4 cyl carbureted engine we also had on test at the time. No smoke.

Also, do we see smoke from a racing 2 stroke under full power down a straight. No. This one’s a bit subjective, however we do see clouds of smoke when a 2 stroke bike or kart starts up.

My conclusion is that the smoke we see is due to oil being not fully combusted, mainly as a result of short circuiting out the exhaust (and not following the scavenging path) and then being only partially oxidized by the heat of the exhaust. I’m sure everyone at some stage has poured oil onto an open fire and watched & smelt the smoke.

So, the trick is than to ensure that no oil can readily short circuit out the exhaust. One thing we did at Orbital on the 3 cyl DI 2 stroke auto engine was to incorporate a crankcase drain system. This essentially was a small check valve at the bottom of each crankcase, this feeding through a small passage into the intake (upstream of the reed valve) of the adjacent “leading” cylinder. I guess this had some capacitance such that any accumulated drained oil took a little while to get into the system. Net result was very little or no smoke or even smell.

I think we’ve all seen or been behind a diesel that is badly tuned/overfuelling/dirty injectors or whatever, the smoke can be obnoxious. Obviously incomplete combustion.

[WilDun]

I’ve been thinking about smoke lately and think that it is not something inherent in the 2 stroke engine, but just the way it passes thru the engine.

My thoughts are that fully combusted oil burns cleanly The key reasoning to this was an observation at Orbital many years ago. This was based on the smoke generation, evident in the exhaust, of the original “rotary” style Orbital engine. What we did to understand this a bit better was to feed raw oil into the intake of a 4 cyl carbureted engine we also had on test at the time. No smoke.

Also, do we see smoke from a racing 2 stroke under full power down a straight. No. This one’s a bit subjective, however we do see clouds of smoke when a 2 stroke bike or kart starts up.

My conclusion is that the smoke we see is due to oil being not fully combusted, mainly as a result of short circuiting out the exhaust (and not following the scavenging path) and then being only partially oxidized by the heat of the exhaust. I’m sure everyone at some stage has poured oil onto an open fire and watched & smelt the smoke.

So, the trick is than to ensure that no oil can readily short circuit out the exhaust. One thing we did at Orbital on the 3 cyl DI 2 stroke auto engine was to incorporate a crankcase drain system. This essentially was a small check valve at the bottom of each crankcase, this feeding through a small passage into the intake (upstream of the reed valve) of the adjacent “leading” cylinder. I guess this had some capacitance such that any accumulated drained oil took a little while to get into the system. Net result was very little or no smoke or even smell.

I think we’ve all seen or been behind a diesel that is badly tuned/overfuelling/dirty injectors or whatever, the smoke can be obnoxious. Obviously incomplete combustion.

Ken,
I think that all of what you have said is entirely correct and all those measures would certainly make a huge difference, but the damage has already been done to the mindset of the larger portion of the population by the (obnoxious) two strokes which roamed the earth in the last century!
So to get back to how it should be is almost impossible without a total facelift and some very strong promotion of it's virtues .......... and who is going to go to those lengths?

[ceci]

I'm a huge two stroke fan, but I'm afraid that electric power is on the way to replacing IC engines. Batteries will provide the electricity at the low end while fuel cells will probably be the answer at the high power end. The big two stroke diesels in ships will probably be the last to go. Even motorcycle manufacturers are seriously considering electric power as we traditionalists die off. The IC engine has had a great run, but it's ending.

I recently visited the Newport Car Museum. My childhood friend volunteers there. We reminisced about the several Pontiac GTOs he drove in the 60s and 70s as presents from his father, a Pontiac dealer. The only muscle car in the collection from that era to the present that could out accelerate my Tesla Model 3 was the Dodge Demon. Even many of the Corvetts, Cobras, and exotic cars in the collection were slower, not to mention less economical. I think museums are where the great IC cars will end up, like horse drawn carriages. Hobbyists will always own some IC cars, but like horses, they won't be for routine use.

Lohring Miller

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_submarine_Peral

Tell me how they could recharge the batteries in the sea.
Its technological advance was thanks to the use of the IC engine until the arrival of atomic energy

[Frits Overmars]

...it's no use to you, they are in Spanish....

Que estas insinuando Ceci?

wouldn't it be great if the two stroke overcame it's "greenie" problems and was used as a lightweight powerplant driving a generator..

It may happen as a temporary solution Will, but it won't last. Feeding some liquid hydrocarbon to a fuel cell may not be as energy-efficient as feeding it with pure hydrogen, but it still is a hell of a lot more efficient than burning that hydrocarbon in an internal combustion engine.

Mazda has been very quiet about their HCCI engine which was supposed to be put into production in their Mazda 3 car - anybody know what is happening there?

It's for sale Will. They call it SkyActive X.

My thoughts are that fully combusted oil burns cleanly... the smoke we see is due to oil being not fully combusted... I think we’ve all seen or been behind a diesel that is badly tuned/overfuelling/dirty injectors or whatever, the smoke can be obnoxious. Obviously incomplete combustion.

I can top that: I was driving a diesel when the turbocharger hose blew up. The dumb MCU kept injecting the amount of fuel that would have been appropriate if the engine had been receiving all the air it was entitled to.
You've never seen more white smoke. People might think we were getting a new Pope...

Overfuelled diesels usually emit black smoke, as the hydrogen in the fuel grabs all the oxygen in the combustion chamber, leaving many carbon atoms unburned. But in my case combustion must have been so poor that the fuel molecules were not even cracked.

[ceci]

Que estas insinuando Ceci?

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I'm sorry I didn't think you know Spanish.
I hope I didn't bother you, I apologize

[Frits Overmars]

I'm sorry I didn't think you know Spanish. I hope I didn't bother you, I apologize

No te preocupes Ceci. I have some Spanish from the Bultaco-era, from people like Ricardo Tormo and Miguel Sauca, the technical designer who worked at the Bultaco and Garelli racing departments. They taught me many Spanish words that you will not find in a civilized dictionary .
Below, left to right: me, Ricardo Tormo, Jan Thiel, Miguel Sauca.

[ceci]

Don't worry Ceci. I have some Spanish from the Bultaco-era, from people like Ricardo Tormo and Miguel Sauca, the technical designer that worked at the Bultaco and Garelli racing departments. They taught me many Spanish words that you will not find in a civilized dictionary .
Below, left to right: me, Ricardo Tormo, Jan Thiel, Miguel Sauca.

I feel ashamed to see that he tried to disagree with people who were already in the world of competition when I had not yet taken a motorcycle (on the date of that photo I was only 10 years old and there were two left to buy my brother the motorcycle Derbi, which I later took)

[WilDun]

Frits, - why aren't you wearing an oil stained dust coat? - were you late for work or were you just visiting?

Has there been any good feedback on the Mazda yet? - Mazda have always been innovators, not afraid of putting it out there and risking failure but always careful not to abandon their reliable established models!

My wife's little Mazda 2, underneath all the facelifts and gimmickry is unremarkable, (although it is reliable and economical)
and that is probably most important.