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Thread: Oddball engines and prototypes

  1. #2701
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    Phil Irving's first Job, in 1922, was as a draftsman at Crankless Engines Limited, Fitzroy, Vic.

    The principal, Mr. A.G.M. Michell, developed the bearing design, protected by world wide patents.
    British Patent # 118098 (US Patent 1,409,057 - March. 1922)

    Same set up used in the compressor in the video, nearly 100 years later.

    Besides drawings, Irving was involved in the practical installation of 8 & 5cyl engines in vehicles.
    He also designed and drew up a 350cc, 3 cylinder, single ended, sleeve valve, four stroke to suit an ABC motorcycle.

    Info from his Autobiography.

    Cheers, Daryl.
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  2. #2702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pursang View Post
    Phil Irving's first Job, in 1922, was as a draftsman at Crankless Engines Limited, Fitzroy, Vic.

    The principal, Mr. A.G.M. Michell, developed the bearing design, protected by world wide patents.
    British Patent # 118098 (US Patent 1,409,057 - March. 1922)

    Same set up used in the compressor in the video, nearly 100 years later.

    Besides drawings, Irving was involved in the practical installation of 8 & 5cyl engines in vehicles.
    He also designed and drew up a 350cc, 3 cylinder, single ended, sleeve valve, four stroke to suit an ABC motorcycle.

    Info from his Autobiography.

    Cheers, Daryl.
    I think if you go back in the thread i posted something with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  3. #2703
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    I think if you go back in the thread i posted something with it.
    Yes you did! Page:50 Post #736

    The Michell swash disc (plate) mechanism is the simplest and most effective of all the crankless designs.
    This is confirmed by its continued use in the A/C compressor.
    (Most others used con-rods & knuckles etc. Not KISS)

    Most of the crankless engines are 4 strokes with quite complicated systems for driving cams and valve gear.

    Old mate, in the video, built a simple two stroke that even P.E.I hadn't considered.

    Reasons I like this:

    Double ended piston provides linear piston movement in the bore. Side thrusts are addressed by the bearing.
    Crank lubrication is separated from the combustion chamber.
    Bottom end of piston (reed valve pump) provides effective transfer efficiency at low revs.

    A modern version of this engine, using current metallurgy and two stroke porting technology would be compact,
    incredibly smooth, efficient and powerful at reasonable rpm and amazingly powerful at whatever the peak rpm might be.

    A racing version could have additional intake reeds in the transfers, to be operated by expansion chambers.
    A 3 cyl touring engine could be fine with a 3 into 1 manifolded exhaust system.

    Cheers, Daryl.

  4. #2704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pursang View Post
    Yes you did! Page:50 Post #736

    The Michell swash disc (plate) mechanism is the simplest and most effective of all the crankless designs.
    This is confirmed by its continued use in the A/C compressor.
    (Most others used con-rods & knuckles etc. Not KISS)

    Most of the crankless engines are 4 strokes with quite complicated systems for driving cams and valve gear.

    Old mate, in the video, built a simple two stroke that even P.E.I hadn't considered.

    Reasons I like this:

    Double ended piston provides linear piston movement in the bore. Side thrusts are addressed by the bearing.
    Crank lubrication is separated from the combustion chamber.
    Bottom end of piston (reed valve pump) provides effective transfer efficiency at low revs.

    A modern version of this engine, using current metallurgy and two stroke porting technology would be compact,
    incredibly smooth, efficient and powerful at reasonable rpm and amazingly powerful at whatever the peak rpm might be.

    A racing version could have additional intake reeds in the transfers, to be operated by expansion chambers.
    A 3 cyl touring engine could be fine with a 3 into 1 manifolded exhaust system.

    Cheers, Daryl.
    The swashplate engine has always intrigued me big time, I have read a lot about it for a very long time including the stuff in Setright's book - I was very impressed with its compactness and smooth running.
    Compressors using that principle (also being in production for a long time) has surprised me - had I known that I would've had a shed packed full of them! (and would have been divorced as well!)! Do they use a swashplate or a wobble plate mechanism? I do like this guy's enthusiasm and "just try it" attitude.

    I guess they will be lying around in scrapyards etc now - what vehicles were they used in anyway? - I might want to have a look even when I'm supposed to be winding down!!

    However, the engine versions have never quite got there and according to Setright's book, many companies have tried and failed - that's a bloody shame! but as you say, of course these were mostly four stroke - would a two stroke fare any better? - certainly would, ie as far as compactness and power to weight ratio, are concerned!

    Here in Auckland, there is a 5 cylinder axial "wobble plate" engine called the Duke engine under development - I think that the wobble plate type, although pretty similar to the swashplate would work better for high revs - The Duke engine has actually been developed to a very high degree over 10 years or so, and I believe that Mahle in Germany have been helping. - but sad to say I haven't heard much in the last couple of years - anybody know what has happened to it?

    I guess the modern conventional four stroke engines have got so established now that to unseat them would be "mission impossible" (whether they are perfect or not!). - human "sheep" and dedicated "followers of fashion" go hand in hand and could be blamed here for their stupidity in allowing things to progress (as we see it) up a wrong path - but then, they are the people who do control the money!

    Oh dear, looks like I've started another of my rants! - better stop and get to bed!
    Strokers Galore!

  5. #2705
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    Hi Wil,

    The Duke is Very Clever ....But SO Complicated, got con rods, rotating barrel to seal against the head (Nemesis of all Rotary valve systems). I wish them all the best.

    The Michell style 2 stroke has none of that. It is so simple, I think I can understand it!

    The Double ended piston with thrust balls is about as basic as possible.
    Turn and mill them out of Bar stock, with basic machine tools, for a start.
    Cast or forge for full production.

    Attached is one from Alibaba that uses round ball bearings and a cap, rather than a flattened ball.
    That's really, really simple and cheap to build and an easy way to adjust swash plate clearance.


    Might need some testing for heat path management at the combustion end.
    Without the piston thrusting on the walls most of the heat will pass through the ring.
    I guess wall tolerance can be pretty tight and the swash case oil will transfer the heat.

    In DeLorean's axial engine notes, he considered oil injection under the piston crown.
    He was proposing a sleeve valve 4 stroke, and that would have reduced heat transfer even more, plus the risk of distorting the sleeve.
    Once again unnecessary complication, should have gone with the Flux Capacitor.

    There must be something I'm missing. Is the transfer pump volume too large (= case 1:1)
    Could increase the transfer port volume to bring the total back to something more appropriate.
    Or reduce the bore at that end, if necessary. At the loss of some simplicity & symmetry.

    From the internet, I've found that double ended type A/C pumps were used in many American Fords and BMW, not sure what else yet.
    The piston shown is from a TM31 and/or DSK32 A/C compressor, these units are still available from China.

    I'm finding this to be a great 'thought' project. Probably need Frits to inject some 'reality' and pop the bubble.

    Cheers, Daryl.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #2706
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    Here is a link to a great series of photos of the disassembly of a 5 Piston (10 cylinder) A/C compressor.

    http://www.idmsvcs.com/2vmod/accompr...led/index.html


    Phil Irving thought that the failure of Crankless Engines Limited had a lot to do with the efforts (ie. cash) expended in developing 20 different crank-less machines, from miniature oil pumps to large aero engines. They built around 54 operating units, mostly in ones and two's. Concentrating on marketing just one or two might have produced the cash flow to continue.

    An 8 cylinder engine was extensively tested by GM, with good results, but ultimately it was decided that a 10% advantage in fuel economy, just wasn't worth the cost of retooling.
    The packaging as an automobile engine wasn't ideal for the 1920's. It sat way too low for mechanics to reach in over the hood. The lower spark plugs were exposed to water off the road.

    As a smooth, light, compact engine/generator for modern hybrids it could be another matter. (even Hybrid bikes)

    The axial piston device is well proven and tested. Probably 95% of agricultural and industrial equipment uses them as hydraulic pumps & motors.

    As an Engine it will need to have significant practical advantages over current IC engines to get a foot in.
    Theoretically, they do have some.... need to Prove it!

    Cheers, Daryl.

  7. #2707
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    Just out of Patent.

    INTEGRAL RING CARBON-CARBON PISTON

    https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...9990051003.pdf

    Cheers, Daryl.

  8. #2708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pursang View Post
    Attached is one from Alibaba that uses round ball bearings and a cap, rather than a flattened ball. Without the piston thrusting on the walls most of the heat will pass through the ring.
    I'm finding this to be a great 'thought' project. Probably need Frits to inject some 'reality' and pop the bubble.
    My pleasure Daryl .
    The drawing below, borrowed from Anthony Michell's Crankless Patent, shows the red forces, starting from the surface of swashplate # 1, and perpendicular to the swashplate, passing through the centers of the balls # 13 and # 14, and ending in the ball seats in the pistons, or vice versa. These forces can be resolved into vectors along the piston axis and vectors perpendicular to the piston axis: your thrust forces.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Another thing: the slider caps # 11 and # 12 in the above drawing seem to have nice flat contact patches on the swashplate.
    But this can't be, because the swashplate has to be curved, so the slider caps must be curved with a radius that is at least as tight as the smallest radius in the swashplate curvature. So in reality the contact patches are contact lines, creating oilfilm-destroying surface pressures.
    These are the type of facts that are not always mentioned in patent applications...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pursang View Post
    Just out of Patent. INTEGRAL RING CARBON-CARBON PISTON
    https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...9990051003.pdf
    Leaving the lousy heat conduction of carbon pistons out of consideration for the moment, that piston might work - in a foulstroke.
    What those lips # 23 would do in a ported cylinder bore, makes me shiver .
    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #2709
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    Another interesting project from NASA. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...0100021938.pdf

    Can I sell you a Totally Sealed internal combustion engine? 7.5W electrical input = >2500W output.

    Ok, the initial test unit is a linear actuator and only does 0.67 rpm.
    But you could use that to charge a hydraulic accumulator and then operate any equipment through an axial piston hydraulic motor.
    More cylinders, More Power.

    This one has everything... Its Electric & Hydrogen & I/C & sealed & No fuel & No exhaust.

    How many do you want?

    Cheers, Daryl
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  10. #2710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pursang View Post
    Another interesting project from NASA. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...0100021938.pdf
    Can I sell you a Totally Sealed internal combustion engine? 7.5W electrical input = >2500W output.
    Output energy over 333 times the input energy? Sure, I'd like a second-order perpetuum mobile. All I need now is an open mind. A very open mind...

    This one has everything... Its Electric & Hydrogen & I/C & sealed & No fuel & No exhaust.
    So they use electricity to generate steam. And then? Drive a turbine?
    How about using that same electricity to drive an electric motor? Efficiency gain guaranteed.

    I almost feel guilty of popping so many bubbles on this fine sunday, Daryl .

  11. #2711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    My pleasure Daryl .
    The drawing below, borrowed from Anthony Michell's Crankless Patent, shows the red forces, starting from the surface of swashplate # 1, and perpendicular to the swashplate, passing through the centers of the balls # 13 and # 14, and ending in the ball seats in the pistons, or vice versa. These forces can be resolved into vectors along the piston axis and vectors perpendicular to the piston axis: your thrust forces.

    Another thing: the slider caps # 11 and # 12 in the drawing seem to have nice flat contact patches on the swashplate. But this can't be, because the swashplate has to be curved, so the slider caps must be curved with a radius that is at least as tight as the smallest radius in the swashplate curvature. So in reality the contact patches are contact lines, creating oil film-destroying surface pressures.
    These are the type of facts that are not always mentioned in patent applications...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    OK! there is some potential side thrust on the pistons, but essentially a balanced couple and because the pistons are solidly connected, net close enough to zero.
    How do they compare to the thrust forces on a piston in a conventional crank & conrod engine?

    Why does the swash plate 'have to be' curved? Michell called it a 'slant'. The pics of plates from Michell engines look very flat. (attached)
    The point of Michell's invention is that the spherical ball contact adjusts for the angularity variations.
    Perhaps curved swashes were the means around his patent??

    They were made from case hardened mild steel and finish ground, to thickness, to balance the piston set.

    I have read a bit about the contact patches. The slipper pads were steel or bronze with a white metal coating, to reduce scoring on start-up.
    The leading edge of soft white metal picked up any loose metallic particles before they got to the high load bearing surface.
    Clearances were set at 0.004" but settled at 0.010" and did produce an audible knock at idle. The cups were made of bronze.

    Cheers, Daryl
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  12. #2712
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    Some more Michell pics.

    8 cylinder slant & piston

    Slippers..Flat as...
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  13. #2713
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pursang View Post
    There is some potential side thrust on the pistons, but essentially a balanced couple and because the pistons are solidly connected, net close enough to zero. How do they compare to the thrust forces on a piston in a conventional crank & conrod engine?
    My red arrows neatly counteract each other, don't they? Well, they would, if they would occur simultaneously. But they don't; they occur alternately: either one or the other, like the thrust forces in a conventional crank & conrod engine; no free lunch there.
    The thrust forces are proportional to the con rod angle in a conventional crank & conrod engine, that usually sways between +/- 13° ,
    and the angle of the swashplate that also varies between positive and negative angles of about the same magnitude.

    Clearances were set at 0.004" but settled at 0.010"...
    Those 0,010" are 0,254 mm in real money. That kind of clearance in a con rod would rattle a conventional engine to dead.
    And I've never seen endurance test results of a swashplate engine...

  14. #2714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    Output energy over 333 times the input energy? Sure, I'd like a second-order perpetuum mobile. All I need now is an open mind. A very open mind...

    So they use electricity to generate steam. And then? Drive a turbine?
    How about using that same electricity to drive an electric motor? Efficiency gain guaranteed.

    I almost feel guilty of popping so many bubbles on this fine sunday, Daryl .
    As I was driving my rental car down a fairly steep road, the automatic transmission shifted down to hold the cruse control set speed. I thought that's why the meter says 21 mpg. Where is regeneration when you really need it? It's one reason why electric drives get five times the equivalent mileage (kilometereage?)

    Lohring Miller

  15. #2715
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    Quote Originally Posted by lohring View Post
    As I was driving my rental car down a fairly steep road, the automatic transmission shifted down to hold the cruse control set speed. I thought that's why the meter says 21 mpg. Where is regeneration when you really need it? It's one reason why electric drives get five times the equivalent mileage (kilometereage?)

    Lohring Miller
    i was driving in canterbury the other day.
    (a vast flat of nothingness the size of the Netherlands inhabited only by a few rbbits and gorse hedges and it seems 1 million center pivot irrigators a few rabid sheep and Grump)
    I thought i might put on the cruise control as it was the only dauy a year when they had no gale force wind immediately the fuel consumption went up from 6.9 to 12 liters/100KM.
    Even on a flat road the computer constantly applies the brakes and then accelerates to maintain the speed.

    The trucks they used to run in the quarry in Dunedin used to run Telma brakes which were regenerative electric brakes that turned the braking force into heat and the generated electricity was used to further slow the brake.

    Previous systemes like the Jakes brake were frowned appon in the quarry as the quarry was in a built up area of Dunedin. Next to the university and now the rugby ground.



    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

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