Oddball engines and prototypes

[J.A.W.]

Yeah, R-R would bloody say that..

The Vulture shat itself.. & R-R never got an X-mill or anything with more'n 12 cylinders to do much..

The 36 litre Sabre (same as R-R Griffon capacity) steadily improved from a 2,200hp rating for take-off to 3,500hp..

[WilDun]

@ W-D.. inlines.. yeah, of course they are.. as H24s - they both have a pair of crankshafts that would be familiar to anyone who's seen a CBX/6 apart..

Radials have a massive 'master-rod' with slaves pivoting from it..& they all whirl about the same big-end - like a bloody merry-go-round..

Yeah I do understand that - maybe we are seeing the same thing from a different perspective, I was basically only discussing the make up of the cylinders, sleeves and heads in the first place.
I do of course see your point, ie when you look at them from a layout point of view, (very different) - so maybe I should climb down and eat humble pie here! perhaps just lay that one to rest!

BTW. - Was it the Vulture that they tried in the Manchester? (twin engined predecessor to the Lancaster). just lay that one to rest!

[husaberg]

BTW. - Was it the Vulture that they tried in the Manchester? (twin engined predecessor to the Lancaster). just lay that one to rest!

Yes........

[J.A.W.]

& being flogged - hauling a heavy load into the sky - killed 'em..

The Vulture fitted to the Hawker Tornado ( R-R powered Typhoon equivalent) lasted a bit longer..
..but it was cancelled too, when the Vulture finally got the chop..

150,000+ Merlins built, but fewer than 20,000 of the big hp Brit aero-recips..

There were plans for a Super-Mosquito powered by a pair of Sabres, which would've saved
the lives of 10s of thousands of aircrew shot down over Germany..

Too little, too late..

Hawker Fury flew with Centaurus, Griffon, & Sabre big Brit aero-mills, went best with Sabre, but RAF was jet-bent by then..

https://oldmachinepress.wordpress.co...sabre-powered/

[husaberg]

& being flogged - hauling a heavy load into the sky - killed 'em..

The Vulture fitted to the Hawker Tornado ( R-R powered Typhoon equivalent) lasted a bit longer..
..but it was cancelled too, when the Vulture finally got the chop..

150,000+ Merlins built, but fewer than 20,000 of the big hp Brit aero-recips..

There were plans for a Super-Mosquito powered by a pair of Sabres, which would've saved
the lives of 10s of thousands of aircrew shot down over Germany..

Too little, too late..

Funny enough the Merlin was not developed with MOD funding Private investor only
From memory the Brit airforce initially po-poed the Mozzy as well.
I read somewhere the bomb payload of the Mozzys was pretty much the same as a B17. when taking into account a full fuel load for long missions
The mozzy was Lighter faster stronger cheaper used less rationed materials and was radar stealthy to boot.
I can't remember the raid but they used some to bomb a germen prison where some key French resistance members were. the Mozzys managed to bomb the outer walls of the prison and the bunkroom/mess of the Germans

[J.A.W.]

Yeah - the commercial/financial skullduggery that went on, even when in dire wartime need - was incredible..

Check this link out for R-R chicanery vs Napier..

http://www.hawkertempest.se/index.ph...y-ljk-setright

[WilDun]

Some good reading there guys, thanks, I enjoyed that - the Sabre was even better than I had thought! - pity about the time it all came about though!
The reason I said hat the mechanics of the time weren't happy doing work on the Sabres was that a guy I met who was the tail gunner on an old Stirling bomber (lumbering death trap) said that the mechanics had always talked about Napier engines being a nightmare (48 spark plugs to check or change for a start!).
I also happened to read this bit - "As it happens, the two firms were mutually supportive and the centrifugally cast austenitic steel sleeves for the Sabre were actually made by Bristol". - So I do get it right some of the time!

My wife's uncle and his co-pilot died on the Dutch border with Germany in that same Stirling when it was brought down by flak after bombing the Ruhr - the tail gunner only just managed to get out before it crashed, but rest of the crew had managed to get out earlier - all the survivors were taken prisoner.
He (pilot) was only 21. (the tail gunner was 18 I think), ...... what a tragedy of a war - well I guess they all are!

[J.A.W.]

For sure, Bristol had spent a fair bit of Air Min money on their sleeve R & D, so they had to (grudgingly, AFAIR) comply
with A.M. instruction to assist Napier with theirs.. whereas R-R had enough political clout to say 'get stuffed'..

Maybe the story you heard was apocryphal , since the spark plugs on the Sabre were centred in the top of the heads,
located in plain sight/reach, unlike many aero-mills..

& like the sleeve valve Bristol radials (such as the Stirling used), it had no pesky poppet valve gubbins - above the piston..

At the RNZAF museum at Wigram there is a Bristol Hercules cylinder exhibit that can be hand-cranked to demo the sleeve motion,
& it is very slick-smooth, no lumpy cam/valve spring commotion there..

A Sabre on display in NZ.. www.wowcars.co.nz/napiersabre

[WilDun]

Maybe the story you heard was apocryphal , since the spark plugs on the Sabre were centred in the top of the heads,
located in plain sight/reach, unlike many aero-mills..
Like the sleeve valve Bristol radials (such as the Stirling used), it had no pesky poppet valve gubbins - above the piston..

Yes, you are probably right but then as that guy was a tail gunner and not an engineer or a mechanic and he might have just heard it from one disgruntled mechanic at the local pub, who knows! but, that's what he told me! (think I'm beginning to lose my credibility here!!)
I'm really very impressed with the Sabre anyway, most people have never even heard of it and it never was adopted by the motor industry or any of the others, guess it wouldn't be good in racing but it would be good for anything else ........then of course, the cost of producing it would be considerable I guess!

[husaberg]

Yes, you are probably right but then as that guy was a tail gunner and not an engineer or a mechanic and he might have just heard it from one disgruntled mechanic at the local pub, who knows! but, that's what he told me! (think I'm beginning to lose my credibility here!!)
I'm really very impressed with the Sabre anyway, most people have never even heard of it and it never was adopted by the motor industry or any of the others, guess it wouldn't be good in racing but it would be good for anything else ........then of course, the cost of producing it would be considerable I guess!

There were a few sleeve valve car engines produced. Riley I think it was raced with them in semi official capacity.
Can't remember his name but it was Major John Treen or something.
I posted up the Bar and Stroud stuff not that long ago I thing Jap had one and I think Anzani did one for Brough Superior

[J.A.W.]

I did read that, thanks..

& Ilmor & Bishop were looking at an F1 sleeve valve application, ~10 years ago.. so of course, the FIA banned it..

Here is Roy Fedden - Bristol engineering boss - stating the reasons for adopting the sleeve valve.. ( the hi-po versions were all single sleeve)..

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...0-%202830.html

&, some more Sabre info.. http://www.aviationshoppe.com/sabre-...ine-p-256.html

[WilDun]

Just another (significant) thing in the poppet v sleeve valve.
I did read in an article about the Merlins in the Spitfires, Hurricanes, etc. - when stationed in the N African desert, being considered very reliable in the sandy conditions even though it was almost impossible to keep the sand completely on the right side of the filters, so obviously poppet valves could tolerate this quite well.
I would however hate to see the sleeve valve engines operating in the same conditions. Not sure that the Typhoons and Tempests did operate there, but then I guess Beaufighters etc. (Bristol sleeve valve radials) possibly would have done.

[J.A.W.]

It was a matter of designing/fitting proper filters..

Sabre powered Typhoons & Tempests were sent to Africa for trials, but were deemed too useful in NW Europe - for war service there..
Tempest Mk 6 were 'tropicalised' ( more cooling/filtration capacity) & served in Africa/Middle East post war..

Interestingly, Kermit Weeks, a US enthusiast, has the sole Sabre Tempest in private hands ( the bloody Poms scrapped every one they had),
& is restoring it to fly.. he has a couple of Sabres too.. none have flown since the last in RAF service were retired ~60 years ago..

[WilDun]

Interestingly, Kermit Weeks, a US enthusiast, has the sole Sabre Tempest in private hands ( the bloody Poms scrapped every one they had),
& is restoring it to fly.. he has a couple of Sabres too.. none have flown since the last in RAF service were retired ~60 years ago..

Hard to see how anyone could actually do that (ie scrap machines which took so much dedication and effort to produce) - goes to show that they really didn't have the slightest clue what engineering is all about, their interest was only about power and glory, or doing everything to the letter of the law to please their masters. - but I guess that's a trait somewhere in all humans!

The Moto Guzzi V8 was a good example, when Guzzi stopped racing in 1957 the bean counters came in and ordered all the existing examples to be destroyed, one escaped the hammer when an employee managed to spirit it out to a shed at the back of the factory where it sat for years, now there are several replicas!

All the Mosquitoes which the RNZAF acquired after the war I'm told were lined up and set on fire! - dunno if they took the Merlins off first. Anyway I'm glad to see some dedicated guys who are again building and also rebuilding Mosquitoes just a few kilometers from where I live now - one has just been done for an American collector and may be the only one flying in the world (for the moment).

I can remember a small paddock of Corsairs being slowly dismantled for scrap at Rukahia near Hamilton back in the sixties - even then I thought that was sacrilege!

I also remember when I was a schoolkid of about 15 in the late fifties, going into the local scrapyard (regularly went in to check out two reasonably good looking Bristol radials from a crashed Wellington Bomber lying on top of the heap!) All my thoughts were on how I could somehow buy them and take them home! - never happened unfortunately.
That was before I actually understood much about sleeve valves!

[Kickaha]

All the Mosquitoes which the RNZAF acquired after the war I'm told were lined up and set on fire! - dunno if they took the Merlins off first.

I've seen the photos of them being burnt, the Ashburton Aviation museum has some some, a lot of the motors were sold for scrap