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Thread: Oddball engines and prototypes

  1. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by G Jones View Post
    Sorry to drag this up again - but only just found this thread (probably got too much time on my hands over the "festive" season) - thought it might interest someone...

    My experience of running a (near) 90 degree TZ350....
    No other reason than curiosity - I'd had the idea in my head for a long time - so - I'd intended using an RD 12 spline crank - but when I came to build the crank up - I'd ordered the wrong centre main bearings - so - Plan B - I'll get it as close as I can with the 13 splined TZ crank - built the crank - made a new ignition backplate for the new firing oder & put it all together.
    We ran that motor for most of a season...
    Thoughts on whether it works...
    First time start up - real difficult to know if it's running on both cylinders - sounds as flat as a....

    Vibrates like a bastard - my missus hated the thing - she could feel the vibes through the chassis - can't be sure it was the motor - but i did have a couple of cracks in the frame that season.

    Not at all exciting to ride - felt flat & slow - but - we did a back to back engine change from Sat to Sun - lap times were near enough identical - and the 90 degree motor was not built with the best parts - if anything it was worn out - compared to the other "normal" engine - which I considered reasonably quick.

    Thing that stood out for me was that you could get away with running into & exiting a corner in the wrong gear - it would just pull away a little easier.

    I do intend building it up again when I've got time - this time I'll build it up with a good barrel, pistons & head I've been too busy with chassis work for a while to get back to it....

    The main reason not to do this years ago - was most ignitions available to us peasants were fixed 180 - we use a Pro-digital now - which is real easy to put the spark wherever you want it
    Could you bolt on an external counter rotating balance shaft?

  2. #692
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    Edlin Stewart engine

    References were made In cable news recently to a' new heavy oil engine invented in New Zealand, to which British experts were paying much attention. This engine is Identified by the Dunlop Perdriau Rubber Co., Ltd., as the Edlin-Stewart, a sleeve valve two-stroke in- vented by two New Zealanders, and which Is practically a compound reciprocating in- ternal combustion engine.
    Each cylinder contains two working pistons, one of the ordinary design, and the other ta the form of a moving sleeve with the top end closed. This sleeve-piston combination performs the functions of primarily com- pressing the explosive mixture, transferring the gas into the combustion chamber, and participating in the power stroke. The crank- shaft has three throws for each cylinder; the ordinary piston rod connects with the centre one, whilst those set on each side extend some distance above the top of the standard piston, where they operate m a chamber sur- rounding the cylinder wall, and are attached on opposite sides of the moving sleeve. The piston bearing and the two sleeve bearings are set at angles of 180 degrees, the result being that as the crankshaft revolves the piston comes down and the sleeve moves up the cylinder. A second sleeve, which is stationary, Is provided over which the auxiliary piston or sleeve, slides down overlapping the top portion of the fixed sleeve, inside of which the ordinary piston reciprocates. The effect of this construction is that as the sleeve moves down, it draws into the head of the cyclinder a gaseous mixture direct from the carburettor. This mixture Is compressed as the sleeve moves to the top of the firing stroke, when a port in the sleeve-coinciding with a port in the cylinder-allows the com- pressed mixture to be transferred under velocity, Into the explosion chamber between the piston-head and inside of the moving sleeve. As the crankshaft revolves the sleeve and ordinary piston move towards each other, compressing the explosive mixture, which Is fired at the height of its compression by an ordinary sparking plug. An additional port is also actuated to permit the exhaust gases to escape. The burning of the mixture exerts Its power by forcing the piston down- wards and the sleeve upwards, thus Imparting two impulses to the crankshaft. This double expansion of the explosive charge converts a larger number of heat units Into power than does the ordinary petrol four-stroke com- bustion engine. The gain Is said to amount from 40 to 50 per cent, from a given size of
    engine.
    By this mechanical construction, crankcase compression-one of the undesirable features of the two-stroke engine-Is eliminated; whilst the temperature of the exhaust gases is very materially reduced and an extraordinary thermal efficiency attained. At all ranges of speed the engine is said to be remarkably free of vibration, owing to the perfect balance
    obtained.
    The new engine Is Ingenious and yet sur- prisingly simple; and Judging by its reception by English experts, Its future is promising. If It lives up to its promise, then possibly it may yet mark a new era ta the history of Internal combustion engines, for by Its use a four-cylinder engine would give the smooth even torque of an "eight" with approximately only half the weight and size.
    http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...&searchLimits=
    https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=...engine&f=false
    note this link includes the Simkin engine that I have already posted
    http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi...19301211.2.112
    http://www.ipaustralia.com.au/applic...mited/patents/

    what became of it according to Stewart the Germans stole it and used it in the Junkers 88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  3. #693
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    All this use of explosive charges and exploding in general sounds bad for the longevity of the mechanical device the chemical reaction is contained within.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
    He's the only one I've got.

  4. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    All this use of explosive charges and exploding in general sounds bad for the longevity of the mechanical device the chemical reaction is contained within.
    Meh.......

    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  5. #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    according to Stewart the Germans stole it and used it in the Junkers 88
    You can blame the Germans for all sorts of things, but not this. Junkers' best-known engine, the Jumo 205 or 1933, was an opposed-piston two-stroke. It had sleeves allright, but they did not move. It had two crankshafts, six cylinders and twelve pistons. Below are a couple of pics I took at the Berlin Technikmuseum five months ago.
    Click 3x for details.
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    The Junkers 88 plane that Stewart referred to, never had sleeve valves. It had either V-12 OHV engines with three poppet valves per cylinder, called Jumo 211 or Jumo 213, or BMW radial engines, also with poppet valves.

  6. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    You can blame the Germans for all sorts of things, but not this. Junkers' best-known engine, the Jumo 205 or 1933, was an opposed-piston two-stroke. It had sleeves allright, but they did not move. It had two crankshafts, six cylinders and twelve pistons. Below are a couple of pics I took at the Berlin Technikmuseum five months ago.

    The Junkers 88 plane that Stewart referred to, never had sleeve valves. It had either V-12 OHC engines with three puppet valves per cylinder, called Jumo 211 or Jumo 213, or BMW radial engines, also with puppet valves.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I was googling it before there as I wondered the same thing there was I think a junkers torpedo engine that was a sleeve valve two stroke I wondered if that was it. I am pretty sure I have posted a pic of it before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  7. #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    I was googling it before there as I wondered the same thing there was I think a junkers torpedo engine that was a sleeve valve two stroke I wondered if that was it. I am pretty sure I have posted a pic of it before.
    There was a V8 torpedo engine with rotary Wankel disc valves in the heads. I guess that preceded the Zimmerman disc valve by quite a few years.

    http://esotericmechanisms.blogspot.c...valve.html?m=1

  8. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjbw View Post
    There was a V8 torpedo engine with rotary Wankel disc valves in the heads. I guess that preceded the Zimmerman disc valve by quite a few years.

    http://esotericmechanisms.blogspot.c...valve.html?m=1
    Yeah cheers that was the one, but that's nothing like it either, maybe the world beater kiwi engine was just rather not so great.
    I guess any story that includes a possible face to face meeting with a reclusive Howard Hughes might be a bit iffy anyway
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  9. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    Yeah cheers that was the one, but that's nothing like it either, maybe the world beater kiwi engine was just rather not so great.
    I guess any story that includes a possible face to face meeting with a reclusive Howard Hughes might be a bit iffy anyway
    It's an interesting concept. But only the upper piston is working on primary compression, so it can only transfer about 50% of the total swept volume into the cylinder.

    Item 15 is described as a check valve. It looks more like a cylindrical rotary valve, though no drive is shown.

    Those countersunk screws make me nervous, could just use circlips to hold conrods to sleeve?

  10. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjbw View Post
    There was a V8 torpedo engine with rotary Wankel disc valves in the heads. I guess that preceded the Zimmerman disc valve by quite a few years. http://esotericmechanisms.blogspot.c...valve.html?m=1
    You may be misunderstood here. The rotary discs you mention were normal flat discs. This torpedo engine was designed by Felix Wankel but it had nothing to do with the Wankel principle.
    Daniel Zimmermann may have been reputed as the inventor of the flat rotary inlet valve, but that is unjustified; that disc already appeared in a 1918 patent by Sun and a Sun 250 cc bike with this system participated in the 1921 Isle of Man TT.
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  11. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    You may be misunderstood here. The rotary discs you mention were normal flat discs. This torpedo engine was designed by Felix Wankel but it had nothing to do with the Wankel principle.
    Daniel Zimmermann may have been reputed as the inventor of the flat rotary inlet valve, but that is unjustified; that disc already appeared in a 1919 patent by Sun and a Sun 250 cc bike with this system participated in the 1921 Isle of Man TT.
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    Thanks for the Sun info Frits, I didn't know about that one.

    Would you attribute the reflected wave exhaust to Walter Kaaden?

  12. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjbw View Post
    Thanks for the Sun info Frits, I didn't know about that one. Would you attribute the reflected wave exhaust to Walter Kaaden?
    Certainly not. http://www.pit-lane.biz/t702p79-oldi...n-et-degner-mz

  13. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    Nice reading.
    Kaden as father of two strokes is just as ridicuolus as hcci invented in 1986 by some anglo saxon

  14. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    You may be misunderstood here. The rotary discs you mention were normal flat discs. This torpedo engine was designed by Felix Wankel but it had nothing to do with the Wankel principle.
    Daniel Zimmermann may have been reputed as the inventor of the flat rotary inlet valve, but that is unjustified; that disc already appeared in a 1918 patent by Sun and a Sun 250 cc bike with this system participated in the 1921 Isle of Man TT.
    Name:  Sun rotary.jpg
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    Scott also had non flat disk valves prior to this

    Quote Originally Posted by tjbw View Post
    It's an interesting concept. But only the upper piston is working on primary compression, so it can only transfer about 50% of the total swept volume into the cylinder.

    Item 15 is described as a check valve. It looks more like a cylindrical rotary valve, though no drive is shown.

    Those countersunk screws make me nervous, could just use circlips to hold conrods to sleeve?
    As I can't quite picture how the Stewart engine goes I am hoping Neil will have one going this afternoon.

    note
    It might be best to leave who came first augments out of the thread as us kiwis are still a bit miffed over Richard Pearce.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pearse
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  15. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    As I can't quite picture how the Stewart engine goes I am hoping Neil will have one going this afternoon.
    Give the man a chance! It's sunday; can't you wait till tomorrow afternoon?

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